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SS Dienstdolch Gottlieb Hammesfahr Solingen-Foche

Article about: Hello people, I have seen a ss dagger which have my interest, so far ive haven't seen any problems.The dagger have's the SS Trägernummer on it.The Röhm Inschrift had been removed in 1934 bec

  1. #11

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    Quote by sebasvg View Post
    He just sended me a expertise from Ralf Siegert from Welcome to the Frontpage
    Attachment 769774

    A CoA and no word regarding the fit of blade and lower crossguard??
    That's interesting,he does contradict himself.

    "Eagle and runes button replaced......." Dagger is in a untouched Found condition..."

    Blade is real,perhaps the guards too,but i doubt on this grip and number.

    Welcome to the jungle
    Regards,
    Gerd

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  3. #12

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    COA's are worth the paper they are written on.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  4. #13
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    If you read the COA from Siegert he stated in the second line from top:

    jedoch nicht zusammengehörenden SS dolch der ersten Fertigungsperiode

    That means in proper English:

    However do not belong together SS dagger of the first production period.

    So as we already have said here it's a part dagger.

    Ron

  5. #14

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    In post 10 I see the expertise from mr. Siegert where he mentions the III to be for the Zeugmeisterei at Berlin.
    This can't be correct!
    The various existing RZM departments all over Germany were abolished with orders in spring 1933. Since April
    1933 only the RZM at Munich did exist. These earlier existing departments did not have numbers, but names:

    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle West (Düsseldorf);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Mitte (Dresden);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Nord (Hannover);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Süd (München);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Ost (Berlin);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Nordmark (Hamburg);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Schlesien (Breslau);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Magdeburg (Magdeburg);
    Zeugmeisterei, Zweigstelle Südwest (Frankfurt am Main);
    Zeugmeisterei, Oesterreich (Vaterländischer Schutzbund at Wien);
    Friedrich Benson, Amtliche Vertriebstelle der RZM der NSDAP at Königsberg,
    according the Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP from December
    15, 1932. The abolishing was announced by the Reichsschatzmeister with the date
    May 15, 1933 to be effective April 1, 1933. The only department which was allowed
    was the Reichszeugmeisterei, Abteilung Zentralversand at Munich.


    In my opinion the Roman III must have meant the Obergruppe-indication. With a July 7, 1933 SA re-organization
    the Obergruppe-numbers were as:
    1 Obergruppe I (Königsberg, earlier this was Berlin);
    2 Obergruppe II (Stettin, earlier this was Hannover);
    3 Obergruppe III (Berlin, for the time being this was Breslau. Earlier this was Koblenz and for a very short time Frankfurt.
    It took until May 1934 as when it became actually Berlin ;
    4 Obergruppe IV (Dresden, earlier this was Ingolstadt and for a short period of time München);
    5 Obergruppe V (Frankfurt am Main)
    6 Obergruppe VI (Hannover);
    7 Obergruppe VII (München);
    8 Obergruppe VIII (Linz).
    As a reward for their role in the Röhm affair of June 1934, Hitler rewarded the SS on July 20, 1934 by establishing
    it as an independent organization. The SA system will have been dropped.

    The groove in the grip would not have been accepted (by RZM inspectors and manufacturing-controle.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 11-27-2014 at 03:22 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #15

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    Among Early SS dienstdolch collectors..there were 3 points of distribution unrelated to the Roman Numeral SS gruppes noted above in Wilhelm Saris post above.

    Roman numeral I - " Munich " most commonly seen with most if not all Early SS daggers

    Roman numeral II - " Dresden " not as commonly seen and is thought that the occupying forces controlled this area.

    Roman Numeral III - "Berlin " Rare distribution mark..which towards the end of the war the Russians controlled a great part of Berlin.

    Once in a great while we see II and III on SS daggers..which have found their way over the last 80 yrs in travel into todays present hands of collectors. IMO the Distribution mark II Dresden is highly collectable which for some reason is more rare then the Russian controlled Berlin Area III
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #16

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    Note the strange Arabic number "3" on this dagger's lower guard on the obverse. The description of the dagger makes no mention of it or what it's supposed to be there for.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  8. #17

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    Quote by Ron K View Post
    If you read the COA from Siegert he stated in the second line from top:

    jedoch nicht zusammengehörenden SS dolch der ersten Fertigungsperiode

    That means in proper English:

    However do not belong together SS dagger of the first production period.

    So as we already have said here it's a part dagger.

    Ron
    Ron,
    note also the last line.
    It reads as follows:
    Dagger is in untouched found condition

  9. #18
    ?

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    Haha yeah I've read it unbelievable.

  10. #19

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    I think it is appropriate to add a full translation of the COA for the benefit of the non-German speakers, allowing everyone to draw their own conclusions on its meaning:


    "Expertise

    Subject: SS honor dagger with fully ground dedication, manufacturer Gottlieb Hammesfahr
    Total weight with hanger: 479.15 grams
    Overall length: 372.6 mm
    1st manufacturing period 1933-1935


    In my opinion, the SS honor dagger described above is an SS dagger from the first manufacturing period that is original in all parts, which, however, do not belong together.

    Reasons:

    All parts of the dagger confirm in shape and style to confirmed original pieces and in comparison match the specialized literature accessible to me and the comparanda in my database and my collection.

    The grip inlays, eagle and SS roundel have been inserted/glued in at a later time; the grip eagle is made of aluminum and therefore does not match the first manufacturing period.

    The scabbard has been repainted. The lower crossguard bears the SS wearer's number 36549 as well as the Roman numeral III for the
    Zeugmeisterei Berlin. On the obverse of the lower crossguard, another 3 has been stamped, apparently from an initial attempt of marking the dagger.

    The blade is still in good condition; the dedication "
    In herzlicher Kameradschaft Ernst Röhm" was completely ground off in 1934 as ordered.

    All fittings and crossguards are made of the good-quality nickel alloy known as "new silver", yet have been cleaned/polished.

    The dagger is in untouched found condition.

    I rate the overall condition as satisfactory.

    Market value ca. 2,000.00 €
    "

  11. #20

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    The groove in the grip would not have been accepted (by RZM inspectors and manufacturing-controle.
    I agree with you.This grip is bogus and someone has fixed and re dyed this wooden handle.
    This explains also the replacement of the insignias and the grooves on both sides.
    Regards,
    Gerd

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