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SS Kettendolch opinions please

Article about: Well Gents, here one up for review. Seller claimsthis one to be in its totally Original "found as" condition, some 60 years ago. Would like to hear your opinions about this one ple

  1. #1
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    Default SS Kettendolch opinions please

    Well Gents, here one up for review.
    Seller claimsthis one to be in its totally Original "found as" condition, some 60 years ago.
    Would like to hear your opinions about this one please!
    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #2

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    One thing I notice immediately is the lower cross guard marked with an SA "He" mark. That would throw up a red flag for me. Not a good start, IMO.
    Mark

  4. #3

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    Is this about the "Gau mark controversy" regarding whether the dagger is a 'parts dagger' or was a genuine period made piece, that has raged for years now?

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  5. #4

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    For me it's original. You can find the gau marks on the lower cross guards of the late period chained daggers (with a so called C-chain). It's a typical C-Chain dagger.

    Stefan

  6. #5

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    I didn't mean to open a can of "worms". I know there are a lot of VERY different opinions on this subject out in the collecting world. This is something you'll have to decide for yourself gerrit. I am one who would rather have one without the Gau mark, so as to avoid any future defense of the piece, and its authenticity. I'm certainly NOT going to call the marked ones "parts", or fake.
    Mark

  7. #6

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    Looks good to me.

    I have an open mind on the SA Gruppe (not Gau) mark issue.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

  8. #7

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    Type I all the way..and in poor condition. "I hate when that happens"..the use of a cover up, of politically incorrect features on the dagger. I realize some of these auction sites or Fleabuy sites..are protecting those who may be offended..by the past. But really..they need to stop hiding in other peoples shadows. Its history!!!...and Porn gains more notoriety. Go figure.

    I agree with Stefan also with the late period use of early crossguards. IMO these late period Type I examples were junk like their late RZM counterparts of quality and craftmanship.
    The dagger itself was put together well..as they should being a Chained dagger..but the plating process used is horrendous. Just my opinion on the aesthetics ..but the SS Man who carried it in the late period....I can bet was more horrifying. Regards Larry
    Yea someone pissed in my beer.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #8
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    Default

    Thx gents so far i dont have the answers or reply's i need.
    Lets clearify a bit.
    The He marking is what i would love to have an explanation for, backup with some good explanations or period proof.
    Why does this one has a Gau marking, instead of the textbook blank ( no marking) or one of the three SS district's, that would be more up hand.
    I cant explain, and no one has given a plausibel explanation yet.
    Im not having trouble with a complete mix of plated, nickel, early , mid and late parts.
    Only why the hell would a dagger like this have a He marking when the District & Gau marking on guards was already abandoned.
    Then the other thing: would SS regulations allow this?
    Would you as an SS officer accept a Gau marked dagger?

    I know that some accept them as period Original, but i would like to hear some solid explanation how this stamp came on this guard.

    Regards,
    Ger
    Last edited by gerrit; 09-17-2014 at 11:20 PM.

  10. #9

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    That's what I was alluding to by saying "The Gau Mark Controversy" in my previous post. Plausible or not, many accept them as genuine, so what's the answer?
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  11. #10

    Default

    I will bring this quote here also from this thread Rare find Transitional SA

    Quote by Larry C View Post
    The use of SA gruppe marks and SS district marks were discontinued after 1935 into 1936.when the RZM went into full swing..and was not necessary to identify SA and SS gruppes by their location. As I stated before in this thread...left over inventory.

    2 scenarios with the Puma dagger above..either it was left over inventory...OR..end 1945 Vet or surviving producer souvenir put together. Most Early grips to early grips to cross guards were a nice fit with a transitional blade..the quality was not totally lost yet...but there is a handful of producers in the Mid period that still had nice fitting daggers whereas others were very noticeable in fit.

    Many daggers were returned to producers for unknown reasons stemming to over stock..by the SA district..a repair of some type...unpaid and returned dagger. I see no issues with Mid period daggers having mixed in early fittings..but my point of this post only is in regards to the early only use of the SA gruppe mark. Regards Larry
    Quote by Thomas Wittmann View Post

    Thomas Wittmann Quote: pg. 27 SS Reference..referring to a Type II Chained SS dagger,, Puma Logo with an SA Gruppe mark... " Further complicating the question of how and why this dagger is so marked, is the fact it is mated with an early Chained SS scabbard with a Type II Chained Assembly. We do on occasion see original SS daggers with unmarked blades having Gau stamped crossguards. This is thought to be attributable to using up existing stores.
    There is no solid proof on the reason why these are mixed in with certain daggers..and can only be assumed..the use of left over stock parts...nor is there any supportive documentation that these SA Guards were purposely applied for SA or SS district reasons. All these district stampings and Gruppe marks disappeared since the end of 1935. Years of physical documentation observes the change in craftmanship and material usage over the course of the next 6 years with dagger production ending in 1942. Any daggers awarded there after 1942 IMO were assembled with existing parts. Any other thoughts on this ? Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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