SS Model 33 come Model 36 Chained Dagger, opinions please.

**MarkH** · 09-11-2012, 02:27 AM

Hi Folks, I would love some help from members relating to my SS Dagger. This dagger was acquired by me from a vets family about 10 years ago ( Scottish soldier, dagger hung on wall for many years) and put away until know and I am trying to record as much history as I can to keep with it. From my research on the net to date, and please correct me where I'm wrong, this dagger is,
1) A Boker model 1933 ( as M36 Chained Daggers had no maker mark)
( yes, the vet's family member did a nasty job on the blade cleaning by the looks of it, probably hours before it came into my hands, but these things happen

,)
2) The scabbard has a bluing, anodized finish ( Rethink to original posting on this- Now Go for black paint as I can see chips to the finish, with some age related, spider webbing, as well as nickel plated fittings?? with loss in places.
3) Someone dropped it,

4) The skull chain is a type II
5) Either the original owner purchased a new chained scabbard for his M33 Dagger or the scabbard for the M33 had a period upgrade???
6) No Roman numerals on the cross guard, what does this mean??
7) Is this an early dagger or not?
Many thanks for any input,
Mark in Oz

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 09-11-2012 02:27 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Larry C** · 09-11-2012, 03:19 AM

Hi Mark from the Land of OZ

Without going into great detail The dagger itself ( separate from the Chained scabbard ) is a mix of early and late period parts,, Some of these officers who were awarded the Chained SS chose to use their own M33 dagger instead of purchasing the whole ensemble of an unmarked dagger blade so in that respect you are correct. The lower crossguard is not district marked for a standard m33. IMO I feel the lower scabbard fitting looks to be late and was added on.
The chain is a repro as the "Kulterzeichen" or the double SS runes on the back of one of the links is stamped in the wrong direction. Out of the 4 existing types,, the one shown is not one of those types. A mixed bag of authentic and repro parts. The blade itself seems to be ok amid all the scratching but hard to tell.
This does show the characteristics of an M36 Chained SS. Check out this link for greater detail of these type daggersLakesidetrader I encourage you to read the descriptions.
These Chained SS daggers are highly sought after and are highly reproduced. Your example unfortunately was a post war put together. Regards Larry

**Larry C** · 09-11-2012, 03:42 AM

Also to answer your question is that your Boker dagger should of had a roman numeral distribution center mark. Either Roman numeral I for Munich...II for Dresden,...and III for Berlin. So yes your Boker dagger should of been comprised of Nicklel silver crossguards with a district mark.,insted of the later used cheaper variety "pot metal".

**MarkH** · 09-11-2012, 04:30 AM

Hi Larry, many thanks for your reply, It is not exactly what I expected to hear, as the source of the dagger traced it back to a Soldier uncle in WW2 and the older couple who I obtained it from explained how the dagger had been brought to Aust in 1952 etc etc.
On closer examination the scabbard is black painted, as I can see chips to the finish and I think bluing would wear off rather than chip.

"The chain is a repro as the "Kulterzeichen" or the double SS runes on the back of one of the links is stamped in the wrong direction"

An obvious thought to me is, if you were going to considerable trouble to produce a repo chain, it would be a little more than stupid to stamp the link out by 90 degrees.

I checked the site you mentioned and there is a Dagger there that seems to have the SS runes link very similar or the exact representation of mine, see image , mine is on the left, Lakesidetrader ( item SS70-16) on right and bottom, even has the same "off" vertical centre line striking?? Could this help validate the chain as authentic??
cheers
Mark

**Larry C** · 09-11-2012, 10:24 AM

Good Morning Mark,, I did a little more research on the Kulturzeichen and you are correct although not printed in a few renown SS references that I can see,, this logo stamping was hit in all kinds of directions.. GOOD CATCH!

I still stand by my other observations mainly on the M33 dagger, as it is an early type with an Early Boker Logo. So according to your story about the vet ,, this part ( the Boker dagger ) IMO is a postwar put together or right after the war for returning GIs to take home a souveneir. Im sure the Vet during that time did not know what a chained SS should look like, but brought it home because it looked complete to him.. So according to what is seen in your photos it seems like you have a decent scabbard except IMO the lower scabbard fitting shows traits of being a late type. I am hopeful for some better "SS" eyes to make a comment as my posting was late for me lat night. I still give it a Half and Half unless others thing differently. Regards Larry

**MarkH** · 09-11-2012, 12:55 PM

Hi Larry,
it certainly isn't the prettiest of blades, the vet families story is pretty believable, possibly a refit of the earlier M33 scabbard when the M36 came out, having seen reference to this type of thing at "German Dress daggers dot com"
"on period upgrades that consisting of well over 18,000 officers and old guard, these daggers simply had the centre band added and the upper fitting adjusted. Then the chain was added "
The wood is very snug to the fittings,
plus lack of Roman numerals on lower guard indicates post 1935 or private purchase item?
cheers
Mark

**Frogprince** · 09-11-2012, 03:12 PM

by MarkH

Hi Larry,
it certainly isn't the prettiest of blades, the vet families story is pretty believable, possibly a refit of the earlier M33 scabbard when the M36 came out, having seen reference to this type of thing at "German Dress daggers dot com"
"on period upgrades that consisting of well over 18,000 officers and old guard, these daggers simply had the centre band added and the upper fitting adjusted. Then the chain was added "
The wood is very snug to the fittings,
plus lack of Roman numerals on lower guard indicates private purchase item?
cheers
Mark

Mark, I am sorry to have to say that there is still a lot of bad or unproven information on the web. Himmler never offered an option other than buying a complete M 1936 dagger (but only to those who met the criteria), and no SS-Kleiderkasse (catalog) seen to date has listed parts or scabbards for sale separately. With my first impression regrettably that of a parts piece, and I not comfortable at this stage with all of the parts - which is going to need a later examination as I have a number of things to attend to at the moment. Regards, Fred

**Wagriff** · 09-11-2012, 05:21 PM

It looks to me like a fairly late era M36 painted scabbard with the poor quality nickel plated fittings and Type 2 chain that got mated with a slightly earlier but still crappy made nickel plated zinc hardware "Mid-Period" Boker M33 dagger. (Mid-Period=1936-37) The grip eagle looks to be Aluminum which is also found on some Mid-Period pieces. The nut on it looks like it May have been taken down a few times but gently and the fit to the guards with the wood is spot on good. The fact that there is no district mark is okey, as they ended stamping them in 1935, so you wouldnt see these district numbers anymore anyway. But, unfortunately, in 1936-7 you can still find daggers both with and without the district numbers. The Boker makers mark is not the "Tree of Life" which is good and it's not unheard of to see makers marks on Mid-Period daggers. And, yes, it's true that you can find those rune stamps on the chains sideways.
Conditionwise, it's not very great, of course. It's been harshly cleaned(steel wool or brush?) and the plating on everything is fading away and speckling off. The ball tip is Heavily smashed which in most cases doesnt usually hurt it That much, but this one is totally squashed.

**MarkH** · 09-11-2012, 11:51 PM

Thank you all for your input, I'm liking Wagriff's analysis, I still can't see what was in the head of whoever got at the blade, maybe they had poor eyesight. An excellent example of the Boker logo that is on my dagger I include here, mine sadly being reduced. An ugly duckling of a blade that cost me $600 back in 2002 I still think it was worth acquiring and being protected from further destruction, it's a survivor.( I was in to spending that much on German lids at the time)

**Frogprince** · 09-12-2012, 12:21 AM

I am very sorry to have to report, that my first impressions upon a little closer look for the most part seem to be confirmed. The nickel plating on the lower crossguard, and the upper and lower scabbard mounts look fairly strong. But the middle mount and the cloverleaf look like they have a lot of corrosion. With the chain which should be nickel plated steel and (relatively speaking) "bulletproof". But instead looks like it has been either heavily, heavily, used and abused or ground down to look like it's used. (With in any case a worn chain also usually having a worn scabbard and other fittings.) Plus: Nickel plating does not tarnish like that - but we also have a reddish color like rust on the faces of some of the chain links (this has also been seen with some Eastern European(?) examples). So is it magnetic? And what are the chain links made of (like perhaps a softer metal) to look like they do?

And that was not everything that seemed to be questionable (with the caveat that lighting may or may not also be factors). Being open to some more pictures if it seems that I may have misinterpreted what is actually going on with this dagger. Best regards to all, Fred