SS Prototype Dagger

[Wilhelm Saris]

I have not much knowledge about daggers at all, especially about the SS, but I wonder what happened with the dagger, which SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz Weitzel had made by the concern of Peter Daniel Krebs (owned by Werner Krebs) from Solingen (the concern that also manufactured the SS-Degen).

Does somebody know how this dagger did look like?
This dagger Weitzel mentions in a letter from May 24, 1940, which was send to Himmler to get approval for his new design dagger. Weitzel says in his letter that for quite a long time his thoughts were about a new SS dagger design. He had contacted Gruppenführer Wolff about this, who suggested to have the dagger made. The 1. prototype (Musterexemplar) was send to Himmler, was completely made by hand. Weitzel asked Himmler to give his critics.
In June the Chief of Staff answered Weitzel that Himmler had a look at the dagger, but did not want to make a decision due to the going on of the war. The design was asked to be kept and show again when the war was over.
A year later new designs were made for a dagger for the Waffen-SS, having the portepee attached. They were handed over to Himmler by Pohl.

Does anyone of you have answers to this? Just curious!!

[Frogprince]

I have not much knowledge about daggers at all, especially about the SS, but I wonder what happened with the dagger, which SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz Weitzel had made by the concern of Peter Daniel Krebs (owned by Werner Krebs) from Solingen (the concern that also manufactured the SS-Degen).

Does somebody know how this dagger did look like?
This dagger Weitzel mentions in a letter from May 24, 1940, which was send to Himmler to get approval for his new design dagger. Weitzel says in his letter that for quite a long time his thoughts were about a new SS dagger design. He had contacted Gruppenführer Wolff about this, who suggested to have the dagger made. The 1. prototype (Musterexemplar) was send to Himmler, was completely made by hand. Weitzel asked Himmler to give his critics.
In June the Chief of Staff answered Weitzel that Himmler had a look at the dagger, but did not want to make a decision due to the going on of the war. The design was asked to be kept and show again when the war was over.
A year later new designs were made for a dagger for the Waffen-SS, having the portepee attached. They were handed over to Himmler by Pohl.

Does anyone of you have answers to this? Just curious!!

Wilhelm, The subject of a fair amount of speculation, and not surprisingly a number of fakes, there has been only one actual dagger that I’m aware of that is believed to be an actual prototype dagger - and it was made by the Coppel firm. With some discussion of the Krebs letter of the opinion that it was a drawing or drawings that were submitted for approval. And while it’s not directly related, there apparently is also some evidence that Himmler and Krebs may have had some kind of business arrangement (presumably to benefit the SS). Which to some extent evaporated because of complaints by other Solingen makers, so the Krebs prototype may have been an attempt to gain some kind of comparable advantage with a new project?? With Best Regards, Fred

[Wilhelm Saris]

The dagger must have been made by Krebs and was not a drawing (read the both enclosed letters).
It was kept in a draw, but got lost apparently (this is mentioned in another note for "Heini" that I have).
It was not Krebs that had a business arrangement with Himmler, but Weitzel with Krebs. Or do I
understand you wrong?

I know about the existance of a group of fake prototype daggers. And as said my knowledge is not related
to daggers at all. I only would like to know how the Weitzel dagger did look like.

[HPL2008]

With some discussion of the Krebs letter of the opinion that it was a drawing or drawings that were submitted for approval.

Definitely not just drawings: The Weitzel letter posted above clearly refers to an actual handmade [handgefertigt] prototype [Musterexemplar] of the dagger.

[Frogprince]

The dagger must have been made by Krebs and was not a drawing (read the both enclosed letters).
It was kept in a draw, but got lost apparently (this is mentioned in another note for "Heini" that I have).
It was not Krebs that had a business arrangement with Himmler, but Weitzel with Krebs. Or do I
understand you wrong?

I know about the existance of a group of fake prototype daggers. And as said my knowledge is not related
to daggers at all. I only would like to know how the Weitzel dagger did look like.

Wilhelm, I regretfully have to admit that I did not try to do a translation and just checked some notes that I had, along with some other more recent information on questionable examples which are in addition to the well known ones attributed to the late James P. Atwood (and his German source). As for the Himmler/Krebs connection, it was from discussions as it regarded research by Joe Wotka* who did the work in Tom Wittmann's book as it regarded the Police Degens. With the Coppel prototype dagger still the only one that I know of where we can see what it actually looks like.

PS: *As for the Krebs connection, it had to do with Police Officers being instructed to look for the SS-Kulturzeichen on Police Degens made by Krebs. Which at least one Solingen maker objected to as Krebs being the only (at the time) supplier. With Best Regards, Fred

[Ryan B]

Is he maybe talking about the Supposed fake Prototype SS High leader dagger that is talked about on WAF. Just an idea.
Ryan

[Larry C]

From what I can see there are 2 prototypes from Krebs..belonging to the late Robert Waites and John Pepera collections and 2 Paul Muller prototypes..belonging to 2 private collectors. Some Photo documented reference can be seen on both of these producer types starting on pgs 643-655 of Tom Wittmanns SS reference.

Regards Larry

[Frogprince]

From what I can see there are 2 prototypes from Krebs..belonging to the late Robert Waites and John Pepera collections and 2 Paul Muller prototypes..belonging to 2 private collectors. Some Photo documented reference can be seen on both of these producer types starting on pgs 643-655 of Tom Wittmanns SS reference. But I dont want to lose track of the the original intent of the thread which has been great so far.........

I would be more than willing to create a new thread and move the already posted reference and photos...if so wished to continue this prototype discussion...which is quite interesting. Let me know your thoughts Regards Larry

I have no problem with initiating a new discussion on them, zero. But before that happens would add that what Joe Wotka and John Pepera had to say can be seen below in posts # 20, 28, 29 and 33. And if time is not a problem: # 34, 36, 37, 40, 41, 47, 49, 53, 54, 58, and 75 with some additional participants added to the discussion. With posts # 53 and 75 showing how even some German resources have now been corrupted. Best regards to all, Fred

SS High Leader Prototype Dagger - Anyone Ever Encountered One Before? Oldtimers? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

[Wilhelm Saris]

I have read the information about prototype daggers for the SS, also at WAF.
What I see is the same dagger images are repeated constantly, but no person or "expert" comes with
any written evidence from letters and information from pre-1945 magazines, orders, actual designs or
whatever related to manufacturers or names.
Not a shred!! I wonder where they all did get there information from: is it "I have heard........" or is all
they do is repeating or parrotting what they have heard in the last 60 years?? Where is evidence from
the years 1939-1945? Don't we all know about the reputation of Atwood and some others, bringing
rumours into the collecting-world!
I think you can find evidence in archives, as I found the letters I posted (see post 1). It must be possible.
There surely will be more, but one needs patience! A nice job to do for the dagger-experts!

[Frogprince]

I have read the information about prototype daggers for the SS, also at WAF.
What I see is the same dagger images are repeated constantly, but no person or "expert" comes with
any written evidence from letters and information from pre-1945 magazines, orders, actual designs or
whatever related to manufacturers or names.
Not a shred!! I wonder where they all did get there information from: is it "I have heard........" or is all
they do is repeating or parrotting what they have heard in the last 60 years?? Where is evidence from
the years 1939-1945? Don't we all know about the reputation of Atwood and some others, bringing
rumours into the collecting-world!
I think you can find evidence in archives, as I found the letters I posted (see post 1). It must be possible.
There surely will be more, but one needs patience! A nice job to do for the dagger-experts!

As it regards the Atwood creations, the lack of verifiable documentation was the same story for the “SA Birdshead” daggers. With the difference there being that some supposedly factory documentation was created to “prove” its existence.

But with period documentation being entirely another matter. With one recent example seeing the order regarding gold colored hangers for high ranking Army/Luftwaffe officers - but NOT with gold colored daggers. Daggers which had been sold for years and also seen in publications as “General Officer’s” daggers. Best Regards, Fred