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SS Prototype Dagger by Alcoso

Article about: I took notice to the top of the crossguard as it has some wear and stain issues..Im wondering if it was wrapped up with the hangrs twisted around it and possibly gotten wet during the Vet ac

  1. #41

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    Quote by maxxx View Post
    I found this thread today
    in my opinion, a late logo of ALCOSO.
    how does a late logo on an early prototype?
    I do not believe this dagger.
    is just my opinion!

    gr
    According to Johnson when he went to Solingen back during the early years..much information was gathered through period contacts,,the Solingen Archives and also the residing new postwar owners in 1956 until 1991 was LJ Lesch KG Solingen. The Prototype Dagger was created not in the early period according to Johnson and his data..but was the next generation of SS officer daggers to potentially be produced upon approval from Himmler. Obviously it didnt happen and was added to other various prototypes list.

    What has me puzzled is the Alcoso name on a SS political dagger which was never allowed because of the 2 brothers Carl and Alexander Coppels Jewish ancestry. They were forced to vacate the premises in 1936. The son of Carl Gustav Coppel...( Karl Reische ) not being Jewish was allowed to stay as a partner eventually being forced out in 1939.

    1941 Carl Gustav commits suicide in Solingen..most likely from his awaited KZ camp doom
    1942 Alexander Coppel dies in Theresienstadt KZ

    IMO if it is true..the prototype was created during Karl Reische tenure..or later.

    Quote by RH1941 View Post
    This dagger has been talked about on this forum before I just can't find the post. I believe if memory serves me it became a beat up fest on Craig and his ethics .
    His business practices shined very bright bringing much into question. No one beat him up..he beat himself up through his dealings...and walked around with a bullseye on his back
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #42
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    Larry very true everybody makes their own bed

  4. #43
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    I think I would carry that around for years .. never find a buyer

  5. #44

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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    According to Johnson when he went to Solingen back during the early years..much information was gathered through period contacts,,the Solingen Archives and also the residing new postwar owners in 1956 until 1991 was LJ Lesch KG Solingen. The Prototype Dagger was created not in the early period according to Johnson and his data..but was the next generation of SS officer daggers to potentially be produced upon approval from Himmler. Obviously it didnt happen and was added to other various prototypes list.

    What has me puzzled is the Alcoso name on a SS political dagger which was never allowed because of the 2 brothers Carl and Alexander Coppels Jewish ancestry. They were forced to vacate the premises in 1936. The son of Carl Gustav Coppel...( Karl Reische ) not being Jewish was allowed to stay as a partner eventually being forced out in 1939.

    1941 Carl Gustav commits suicide in Solingen..most likely from his awaited KZ camp doom
    1942 Alexander Coppel dies in Theresienstadt KZ

    IMO if it is true..the prototype was created during Karl Reische tenure..or later.



    His business practices shined very bright bringing much into question. No one beat him up..he beat himself up through his dealings...and walked around with a bullseye on his back
    I’ve never seen the original hardcopy evidence myself, but there does seem to be a good chance for some actual evidence in the SS/Himmler’s files. What is supposed to be there is as follows: In May of 1940 as it regards Krebs, mention of a single well made prototype design that the RF-SS placed on hold in June of that year because of the war. And September of 1941 when several prototypes and a few drawings from an unknown source were also submitted to the RF-SS, and placed on hold for the same reason. So maybe the answer or at least a part of it is re-discoverable in the paper trail? As for Coppel, as I mentioned earlier, Coppel was the primary maker of German Police service bayonets. With the company being “Aryanized”, and the head of the SS and Police - Himmler who was very much in the picture. And if the NSDAP and RZM had a problem - Himmler did not as demonstrated by his personally going around both of them to accomplish his own purposes with the adoption of the M1936 dagger as a non-RZM item that was for sale by the SS. Best Regards, Fred

  6. #45

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    There are a lot of problems with this SS dagger being a factory produced Alexander Coppel "prototype". As Larry notes Alexander Coppel and his family were Jews and were harrassed and persecuted by the Nazi's from 1933. Members of the family fled to Switzerland in 1934 and in 1936 Alexander and other family owners forced to sell the company also know as Alcoso to the German State, for a fraction of it's value. So from 1936 the company changes from "Alexander Coppel GmbH & Co, Solingen" to Alcoso Werk GmbH, until 1945. The brand logo also changes from the scales with "ACS" to scales with "AWS".
    So the "prototype dagger" as shown is with a blade of the pre-aryanized, Jewish owned company, something that would have been unthinkable for an SS prototype. It also suggest the blade is pre-1936.
    Secondly there is a worrying lack of providence. It turns up in the collection of a respected collector in the mid 1970's. Where was it between 1945 and 1975?
    Thirdly there is a possibility that this was not an official SS commission, but a private commission to a jeweller either pre-war or post war and that jeweller (with undoubted craft skills) produced the dagger as a limited edition using an Alcoso blade of an Army dagger.

  7. #46

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    With my limited knowledge i would pass it off as fantasy fake, just be my luck really.
    "and when he gets to heaven,
    to saint peter he will tell:
    "Just another marine reporting, sir
    I've served my time in hell."

  8. #47

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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    There are a lot of problems with this SS dagger being a factory produced Alexander Coppel "prototype". As Larry notes Alexander Coppel and his family were Jews and were harrassed and persecuted by the Nazi's from 1933. Members of the family fled to Switzerland in 1934 and in 1936 Alexander and other family owners forced to sell the company also know as Alcoso to the German State, for a fraction of it's value. So from 1936 the company changes from "Alexander Coppel GmbH & Co, Solingen" to Alcoso Werk GmbH, until 1945. The brand logo also changes from the scales with "ACS" to scales with "AWS".
    So the "prototype dagger" as shown is with a blade of the pre-aryanized, Jewish owned company, something that would have been unthinkable for an SS prototype. It also suggest the blade is pre-1936.
    Secondly there is a worrying lack of providence. It turns up in the collection of a respected collector in the mid 1970's. Where was it between 1945 and 1975?
    Thirdly there is a possibility that this was not an official SS commission, but a private commission to a jeweller either pre-war or post war and that jeweller (with undoubted craft skills) produced the dagger as a limited edition using an Alcoso blade of an Army dagger.
    Speaking to just the thread starter which was in the collection of the late John Pepera, as it regards the Coppel firm that preceded the nationalization under RF-SS Himmler of the German Police (and other users). With a relationship to the company continuing to almost the end. Providing some basis for dating the diffferent trademarks that were used by looking at the manufacturing characteristics as compared to items that are dateable. My point being that it's not a pre-1936 trademark, but noticebly later. Best Regards, Fred

  9. #48

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    Enigmatic Dagger.
    But Lets Play Devils Advocate.
    The Scabbard Design Seems To Be Drawn From Casberg's Rad Leaders Dagger?
    An Elite Unit Might Wish To Distance Themselves From The Labour Corps ?.
    So Had It Been Adopted Who Knows How It Would Have Been Received?

    The Artistic Flow Of The Design Is Lacking Compared Casberg's Classics?
    I Seem To Remember Seeing A Period Sketch From Which This Was Created?

    Is The Provenance Is Known Prior To The Motel Buy?

    Finally
    With The Correct Skills And A Bunch Of Money Could These Have Not Been Created Or Completed Post War With A Ten Year Gap Between Releasing Them ?.

    Regards Lufty

  10. #49

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    I had a chance to handle this dagger at John's house. The extreme level of high craftsmanship would for me confirm it being of the period. I used to know the history of this piece but no longer can recall what it was.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  11. #50
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    The skull on the pommel looks like it had cheekbone surgery!
    Other than that, what a beauty, holycr*p!

    Regards,
    Bas

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