Suspicious SS Dagger - Brown handle?

[naptime]

Hi everyone. Are there known SS daggers with a brown handle similar to what was used on the SA daggers? Please take a look at these photos... The dagger looks original with the Meine Ehre heißt Treue logo on the blade but I'm just confused... Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you!

[Larry C]

Nothing to be confused about the grip.. as this is what is to be expected which proves the SS man had his hand on the grip most of the time..wearing off the black dye and leaving a brownish black tint.

I see no issues with the grip or the dagger other than the blade being worn.

Mid period SS transitional 1163/38 SS F.&A. Helbig, Steinbach


Regards Larry

[naptime]

Thank you, Larry C. I didn’t realize that the black color of the handle could wear off.

[Larry C]

it will happen to the grips that are dyed more so than the painted.

The dyes sink into the wood wear as paint is topical and does not go into the wood as deep.
Thats why you see that discoloration ..the same seen with face paint if left on too long..once washed off..there tends to be a tinge of color remaining because of the pores in our skin.

Paint on wood leaves no remnants once removed by scraping or a sander.
Dyes are thinner and the pores in wood drinks what ever thin deep.

A worn handle SS grip tells a story

[ollar]

The first SS handle can be dark brown.It was described in the book.

[gerrit]

The first SS handle can be dark brown.It was described in the book.

? described in a book? which book?

SS regulations do not mention braun grips for SS daggers as far as im aware of, and are very specific about the black grips.
Regards
Ger

[naptime]

My initial concern was that this was an NSKK dagger with SA handle and someone had just replaced the SA roundel with an SS. Larry's point about the black dye wearing off over time sounds legit but I find it odd that they would have ever manufactured SS daggers with brown handles.

[Larry C]

The first SS handle can be dark brown.It was described in the book.

What book Ollar?
what reference and author..including page number.
photos please !

while we wait please read this tutorial by our forums sponsor regarding SS grips.

Handles were made from hardwood never softwood. Makers tended towards some generalities so in time one can see characteristics typical to individual makers. They were roughed out, sanded down, stained by boiling the grips in black aniline dye, and then the inserts fit with care.

This process of impregnating grips with dye tended to make the grips brittle and susceptible to chipping, flaking and cracks. Depending on the maker and the batch of wood, the dying process had varied success. We do see some grips today that can look brown. This is due to the dye not taking well and or the way the dagger was stored.

Typically early daggers tended to have softer lines than the RZM types indicating more time and care had been taken in finishing. Original handles were never made of anything other than wood. A plastic handle is a dead giveaway of a fake. The wood on SS daggers is notorious for chipping.

Painted grips came shortly there after in 1934

[Frogprince]

Quote by Lakesidetrader:

Handles were made from hardwood never softwood. Makers tended towards some generalities so in time one can see characteristics typical to individual makers. They were roughed out, sanded down, stained by boiling the grips in black aniline dye, and then the inserts fit with care.

This process of impregnating grips with dye tended to make the grips brittle and susceptible to chipping, flaking and cracks. Depending on the maker and the batch of wood, the dying process had varied success. We do see some grips today that can look brown. This is due to the dye not taking well and or the way the dagger was stored.

Typically early daggers tended to have softer lines than the RZM types indicating more time and care had been taken in finishing. Original handles were never made of anything other than wood. A plastic handle is a dead giveaway of a fake. The wood on SS daggers is notorious for chipping.

Very, very briefly - regrettably that is a quote from a position that I don't agree with, there being a hotly contested discussion quite a while back elsewhere where the matter was discussed at great length. For example: There are some fairly late SS daggers that have a softer and more whitish colored wood that could be dyed - but instead like earlier daggers have a black surface finish. Etc. Etc. The true picture for collectors obscured by the postwar refinishing of many SS daggers by especially dealers and some collectors that is a lot more common than some folks might imagine. And while it's not a joke to collectors, sometimes somebody will actually post before and after pictures which can be amusing if they were the ones applying the new finishes. The bottom line IMO being that like the SA daggers European Walnut was a primary wood of choice with the SS grip example posted here a badly broken original factory finished grip that was not dyed (that will hopefully save 1000 words).

PS: There is technical side to the aniline dyes that I addressed back then, but as sometimes happens with technical matters from people with different backgrounds, I was not as successful in getting some of the basics understood as I would have liked. Best Regards, Fred

[ollar]

Hi! In Ralph Siegert's book on page 33 et seq...There is a description of the manufacture of the handle of the dagger SS: "the handle is made of solid wood , ebony or ash, painted in black."Later, the handle could tan's,it was not considered bad in the ranks...Sorry, I meant that the early manufacture of the handle can change the color!
This book is available in German and Russian..Can there be and on English?