That's all good points and well taken. Wagriff, I do see your point as well, it may seem like I don't. All dealers make mistakes, I grant them that, 150%. Like templehof says, it's how they deal with those mistakes.
But when I see a dealer who appears to flaunt honesty for profit, I usually avoid them at all costs. If eMedals is in fact hiding evidence of sold fakes, that's not good at all. Again, I hope they are not.
Cheers, this thread has in fact taken many turns but as I was telling Ralph last night, (rbminis, we were at a collector get together here in town) this helmet to me represents the best and worst of the hobby.
It's a wake up call for me, one I will never forget!
11-24-2013 10:14 PM
Doug, Yes, I do see what you are saying, of course, but the only problem I can see right now is, at the moment, we all have no idea as to Why they were removed and what-if anything-is being done about it. All we have right now are "Maybe's, what if's, etc" Like you said, perhaps they are refunding the buyers or are trying to contact them-which would only seem natural under the circumstances. To light the tar torches before anyone even knows what is happening is abit premature. And, although I'm sure some would disagree, but if I had a website that had ignorantly sold a bunch of fake helmets to a flurry of customers, I would, of course, take down the sold listings too. Who Would in their right mind keep the photos up and have a caption saying "Sold but being refunded because we are too stupid and uninformed to have known that this was a fake helmet"? The best damage control, under the circumstances, I would think, would be to simply pull the listings and quietly get a hold of the customers who had purchased them and settle it with Them rather tossing it to the public eyes and put on the sack cloth and ashes and end up looking incompetent and ignorant to the rest of your large customer base.
Having said all that, I seem to have somehow unwillingly become, as I said earlier, the "Council of Defense" for this seller and I'd really rather not take sides at all. All I've simply said here is that My personal experiences with them have always been good. I'm neither promoting them nor am I going to continue to defend them-that's not my responsibility here. I Very much do, however, hope that the scenario I've envisioned here is, indeed, taking place like I've postulated and that all ends up turning out well and to the satisfaction of all involved. I, quite likely, would not have said anything at all, if not for Frank accusing me off "praising them to high heaven", which, reading over my post I'm abit puzzled as to where that conclusion came from, but it is what a person reads into it, I guess. I do not and never have liked to or agree to see a seller turning money from deliberately selling fake Anything, whether it be militaria, signatures, artwork, coins-you name it. If it is Intentional, then it is, as you said, Criminal. If it is Unintentional, then let's see what solution is enacted-if Any- before any further pitchforks are picked up. That's only common sense.
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
probably the correct thing to do, in view of the issues discussed here, would be to see if the seller would like to appear again and state what is being done.
it obviously is not required that he do so, but i would think it would make good business sense.
hard to say what a dealer's thoughts towards this might be. a dealer might be eager to or be annoyed at the idea.
a corporation would do it. they're businesses too. just damn big ones.
a thread like this would best serve future readers if ended this way because, as Wagriff rightly points out, speculation doesn't do us much good.
Call me a cynic but I will bet not one of the buyers of those helmets will be contacted.
They've been invited to post the helmets for comment. No reply (yet). I would think it would serve them well to have said why they removed the SOLD listings, if it was in fact to contact their sellers. However the silence is deafening.
I am sorry, I do not trust them. Not one bit.
I'll be watching their future German helmet listings closely.
E medals have bailed out from this topic. Unintentional mistakes ? I don't think so.
Not caring and cashing in is what it is. It's not about this particular helmet or string of fakes either , it's come now into the open how they have been doing business for years. If Doug hadn't cared they would just keep going.
well looking back on their comments, it was stated that would take "appropriate action" with respect to "both the seller and the buyer".
so that having been said, and if followed through on, would give the best possible outcome: DougB points out a wrong which is subsequently corrected as best as can be done.
E-medals I guess are bad on telling fake helmets, however what do you guys in medals say about the fake T badge posted?
When I see that, I seen enough. If they don't refund the buyers of the fake helmets, then we don't need a 'explaination', as we have then the answer.
I'm a dagger guy, back a few years ago when I was interested in acquiring a SS Helmet. A collector I know at the time stated a 'line' I still remember; 'What's the difference between a $500. Army helmet and a $5,000. SS helmet? A decal!' -It was a clear warning.
The only way I will trust a SS helmet now is one I personally get from the woodwork. - Thanks DougB.
I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I find the silence from eMedals very deafening and quite telling on the other fakes they sold customers.
A good retailer will always be up front with his customer base. Those are the practices expected by law in Canada.
eMedals is flirting with an inquiry by Consumer and Corporate Affairs from a savvy buyer one of these days. We have laws in our country to protect consumers and the laws here have serious teeth.
I wasn't going to chime up about these chaps again after the clear fake helmet /helmets issue but as they are still selling both the fake Braunswick treffen + the fake Reinhard Heydrich cuff title (both of which have been highlighted on this forum , I guess the "silence" is quite rightly getting louder and louder(at least in my opinion)!! Leon.
"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." Ernest Hemingway
12-08-2013, 05:34 PM
I have also wondered if the law would ever get involved with the fake militaria fiasco, but fakes have been around for decades and there is no sign that it will happen. It is like the wild-west with TR militaria, everyone does as they see fit to do in the absence of any governing laws. Yes there are glaring and frequent injustices, but there is no Sheriff!
If it concerns a matter such as outright theft (re: failure to pay for delivered item, failure to deliver paid-for item, etc...) agencies can get involved, but if it is a matter of the authenticity of a certain SS decal or badge for instance, this seems to be a very gray area and probably why the law will not get involved. After all:
1. How does one convince a jury that a particular piece of purported 'original' militaria is actually fake, for instance? Which experts are to testify? What if those 'experts' have made documented errors in the past? How would that affect their credibility? How is 'authenticity' even established, and on whose word?
2. How does one convince a jury that a certain dealer/person who sold the said militaria actually knew himself/herself that it was fake? Maybe he/she was simply mistaken about the high quality fake? Maybe it was simply an error in their judgement and no criminal activity was intended?
So then, since authenticity has yet to be established, and intent to defraud has yet to be established, nothing on the legal front may be happening for a while.
Collectors should always use their common sense in this hobby. They should work to wean themselves off of the dependency of others.
Any item touted as 'rare' or 'very rare' should always be viewed with 10X suspicion as chances are high that it is not good.