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M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

Article about: Yep, I agree, possibly botique. One exception to that possibility is they are widely occuring in early LAH pictures, in many transitional configurations of field grey and black (and actually

  1. #41

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Yep, I agree, possibly botique. One exception to that possibility is they are widely occuring in early LAH pictures, in many transitional configurations of field grey and black (and actually earth grey). There are whole formations of LAH wearing them, such as the Dietrich / Wagner review of the men passing in review in overcoats. So I think they were most likely an early standard issue type that perhaps was edged out by the super capable firm of CA Pocher (probably a simple contract bid that went bad for I. M. Fat and Sohn--:-) ) That's my thinking over the years on these..

    Quote by DougB View Post
    I magnified it and compared it to both but I can't remember which the print and pulver bore a stronger resemblance to now and lost the 400x pics when my old Toshiba crashed. Ill have to try it again one of these days.

    I was thinking Pocher or boutique given the variety of shells it is found on similar to Pochers.

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  3. #42

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Has anyone ever put these under an electron microscope to find the exact composition to compare to other makers? That might be an interesting exercise. Now that I have said that I am wondering if that is that essentially XRF?

    Doug have you ever compared an EF runic with a late M42 EF Heer? I have always thought they must be made by the same guys by the colours and appearance.

  4. #43

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    I absolutely did use x-ray flourescence on Fat runes. (We established a mean for fat, pocher, Q, EF and champagne runes). You may find it interesting that the only significant difference or variable in the makeup of these little things, across all types, was 3% copper content only found in Champagne runes, whereas basically the same %ages of other elements were consistent in all the others. So basically, aluminum pulver, India Ink, some vanadium (I suppose as a brightener) and that's about it. Xray can be useful, like all the other tools in our tool kits, but the data has to contain a lot of samples for it to be meaningful. I personally found it to be super useful but certainly not the final word--just another piece of the puzzle. But yes, they are all basically the same composition in terms of elements.

    Quote by KradSpam View Post
    Has anyone ever put these under an electron microscope to find the exact composition to compare to other makers? That might be an interesting exercise. Now that I have said that I am wondering if that is that essentially XRF?

    Doug have you ever compared an EF runic with a late M42 EF Heer? I have always thought they must be made by the same guys by the colours and appearance.

  5. #44

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Ahh, cool stuff. That's a great testament to German industrial standards but quite unhelpful for detective work 70 years later It would be better if they were wildly different and one signature screamed POCHER/ET/FAT(& sohn) from across the room.

  6. #45

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Yes, totally cool stuff. I did oversimplify though-- there are slight distinctions between the makers' "signatures" or wave graphs. They are very slight though, I suspect due to the commonality of what a decal is-- a glittery transfer of a certain spec for a specific decorative use. Thus, only tiny variations.

    Quote by KradSpam View Post
    Ahh, cool stuff. That's a great testament to German industrial standards but quite unhelpful for detective work 70 years later It would be better if they were wildly different and one signature screamed POCHER/ET/FAT(& sohn) from across the room.

  7. #46
    ?

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Vanadium is an anti rusting agent used in modern chrome applications, I have often thought that vanadium was an anti-rusting agent used so those pretty metallic pulver decals didn't rust when exposed to the elements. This also explains when relics are dug up that the SS decals are often in amazingly good condition still. Thoughts Kelly?

    Yes, I agree 100% with your assessment, that's why I think maybe a boutique purchase, the LAH contracted them much like the other service branches of the SS. Your old VT, the Austrian and what I believe to be an SS-PB like your old hand rendered, both on identical Himmler light duty parade helmets. I showed you that one last year, with the white on black decal and offset runes matching the hand rendered one published and period pics of black transitionals with white offset runes.


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  8. #47
    ?

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Here they are side by each. Both Himmlers, offset runes, white on black. I think during these expansive formative years the units used local suppliers until as you say Pocher used the design that was standardized along with ET who manufactured their own.

    I love the study of the early SS helmets as you know Kelly.


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  9. #48

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Doug I think you are spot on.

    Regarding this array of decals you've just whacked out here these show that very set lineage that SS heraldry began to take on pretty much from the start, both in design and materials. Those guys had their act together in terms of enduring and aesthetic design.
    Nice helmets... jeez.

    Ok, I will whack one more decal up there for us to ponder--I call it a hybrid between Fat and Pocher... I think you know which one I mean ;-) ;-) What shall we call this?

    Here goes...

    Quote by DougB View Post
    Vanadium is an anti rusting agent used in modern chrome applications, I have often thought that vanadium was an anti-rusting agent used so those pretty metallic pulver decals didn't rust when exposed to the elements. This also explains when relics are dug up that the SS decals are often in amazingly good condition still. Thoughts Kelly?

    Yes, I agree 100% with your assessment, that's why I think maybe a boutique purchase, the LAH contracted them much like the other service branches of the SS. Your old VT, the Austrian and what I believe to be an SS-PB like your old hand rendered, both on identical Himmler light duty parade helmets. I showed you that one last year, with the white on black decal and offset runes matching the hand rendered one published and period pics of black transitionals with white offset runes.


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  10. #49
    ?

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    I think the SD variant? Yours are named SD officer examples (and Superb I might add!!)

    I remember you showing me those and recalled seeing one posted on GHW2 and contacted the owner who had sold to Giorgio who sold it to Brian who I traded one of those killer grey double decal reissues with the cut down straps for it. It is also named to an SD officer so perhaps this branch of the SD sending members to the field requisitioned its own decal, again a boutique purchase? This one was one of the few SS helmets worn in North Africa, the officer was commanding the SD Einsaztgruppen Kommando that was sent there to begin the rounding up of the North African Jews. In fact wasn't there a link between this officer and one of the ones of yours?


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  11. #50

    Default Re: M35 DD SS ET Fat Runes

    Not trying to be off topic but why is there darker green around the decal Doug?

    interesting thread.
    Pat

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