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M42 SD CKL 5345 / Champagne

Article about: Hi all, I understood there is a lot of 'talks' going on about the M42 SD CKL 5000+ lot numbers. Nonetheles i would like you present you mine / enjoy

  1. #51

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    I know Bob Hritz has one with direct veteran provenance he got along with a bunch of Italian SS insignia.. I will see if he will post on this thread. He posted about it on WAF and was shouted down by a bunch of members of the peanut gallery. His comment to me was "why bother."Doug is a respected collector of SS helmets. However, none of us, including him, is infallible.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

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  3. #52

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    I got on the GHW site and read Doug's findings. Very well presented with quite compelling evidence to support it. The way he explains his thoughts in regards to the inconsistencies(really no consistency) to these decals(painted in the examples he exams) to shell relationship that other accepted decals share with helmet manufacturers and the inconsistencies in the champagne runes with in the shield itself makes a lot of sense. Would love to see this approach of magnification used by someone with an alleged "real" decal to counter it(I don't have one myself).

  4. #53

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    Quote by popcorn View Post
    I got on the GHW site and read Doug's findings. Very well presented with quite compelling evidence to support it. The way he explains his thoughts in regards to the inconsistencies(really no consistency) to these decals(painted in the examples he exams) to shell relationship that other accepted decals share with helmet manufacturers and the inconsistencies in the champagne runes with in the shield itself makes a lot of sense. Would love to see this approach of magnification used by someone with an alleged "real" decal to counter it(I don't have one myself).
    That is it , if there are real ones they can be identified as such but seeing as I don't have come across a believeable CR runic helmet in like 10 years I fear they will not exist or people are mixing up their decals.
    We will see if one turns up that can be used to make a case until then I think the wise advise is to pass them by.

  5. #54

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    Quote by Schwerpunkt View Post
    That is it , if there are real ones they can be identified as such but seeing as I don't have come across a believeable CR runic helmet in like 10 years I fear they will not exist or people are mixing up their decals.
    We will see if one turns up that can be used to make a case until then I think the wise advise is to pass them by.
    I agree. It is a must read. Doug leaves no stone unturned.

  6. #55

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    The problem is that most people have made up their mind on this issue due to Doug's thread. It is unlikely that any individual owning a genuine example would want to open themselves up to the ridicule that would undoubtedly be forthcoming.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  7. #56

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    Bob I see you're point about those not wanting to open themselves to ridicule. Like the example you obtained in '61 at the time no one was taking high quality digital pictures and asking vets to provide a notarized letter with unit served in, etc. like now. I do hope if any come forward an open mind can be kept.

  8. #57

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    There's all the reason in the world for people with possible genuine "Champagne" decal SS helmets to do exactly that --- that is, unless they wish for these helmets that they are in possession of to become, or rather stay, practically worthless in the general marketplace.

    Are we really arguing that a fear of hurt feelings is the reason these genuine period examples are not coming out, being presented properly for what they must be if unquestionably of the period --- namely a very rare SS variation/oddity? Sounds like these few individuals are doing themselves and the hobby a substantial disservice then... Doug's thread aside --- have any of these helmets ever been presented to the "public" before? If so, where --- and, if no... why not? Doug's thread is only a few months old whereas these rarities have a legend that seems to span decades, looong before the internet was even conceived of.

    I, myself, remain highly skeptical to all of this... what is being put forth by believers and supposed owners is that these rarities are to be believed in based upon nothing but "vet" anecdotes, the owners don't even want to make an effort in exculpating this rare variety and seemingly never have, despite having had all the time in the world to do so.
    I respect the experience and opinions of the older ranks in this hobby fully but it takes more, obviously for most voicing an opinion on the subject, than a simple "Vet" anecdote with nothing else to back it up --- A very solid case has been made to the contrary, there's no getting around that despite people believing these decals to be fantasy having thinly veiled ad hominems thrown at them from leaf and right.
    Seems to me that many other of the older generation of collectors are also convinced that these are not real/of the period so it's kind of hard taking contrary opinions at face value simply because of who they are presented by, all due respect. Doug's thread could just as well have been created by a no name equally experienced collector, only presenting the same evidence and reasoning, and we'd still be where we are today...

    I believe by and large in evidence and solid arguments --- I can recognize solid research when I see it without having a decade long track record, no matter who presents it.

    It's clearly up to those with these much referred to but, to my knowledge, never shared period examples to step up, if not there's no debate here in my mind and these decals will continue to be perceived as nothing but a clever long believed in post-war fabrication.

  9. #58

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    Bob, I think the point is that a helmet with a champagne DECAL has not been presented since the GHW thread was posted. The insignia analyzed by Doug all turned out to be painted, fairly well done, but none were decals. That is what I had been told many years ago, and for that reason I have avoided helmets with champagne runes. It just doesn't make sense to me that late in the War, when things weren't going well for the Reich and the trend was towards taking short cuts in the manufacture of war materials, a time consuming process of spray painting insignia on helmets would be initiated, especially when enormous stocks of Pocher runic decals were available. That being said, I had also been told a few years ago the Ludwig Baer had contract documents from NS from the thirties that proved that there was a contract to produce runic decals for the NS factory, which would support the argument that there were champagne runes on M35's, but those contracts have yet to be seen, and the M35's Doug analyzed do seem to be painted. I would expect that if someone produced a helmet with champagne runes that turned out to be a decal many people might be more accepting, but until that happens, there will be many non believers, myself included. I am not an expert, so my opinion on this issue is really meaningless, but the arguments and evidence in the recent presentations are compelling, and for that reason I will continue to avoid helmets with this insignia. Best regards, Jim G.

  10. #59
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    Agree, if there is evidence of their existence - then by all means present it. If uncomfortable in presenting it yourself, then have it presented by someone more comfortable or capable of doing so,..... or remain anonymous.

    Until such time as verifiable evidence if presented, these decals will remain as unverified in their existence as unicorns and bigfoot. Pure fantasy, that I must admit - as most I would be incredibly amazed if someone would capture and present one. But alas, if one was presented appropriately - acceptance would naturally follow.

  11. #60

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    At this point, I do not think any photos posted on line will change anyone's mind as I think opinions are already set in stone. Kelly Hicks firmly knows that original examples were brought back by vets. As I mentioned, I also have bought several over the years directly from vets. Evidence requested by some today was not considered necessary years ago.. At this point, I doubt there will ever be a universal acceptance or rejection of these helmets. As Bob Hritz said, "why bother." None of us old timers have any idea what we are talking about.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

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