'Berlin Hoard' Totenkopfs

[ToxicGas]

I'll start off by saying that I know these are not SS skulls, but tradition badges, though I felt this section would get the biggest response from those knowledgeable on them. If this is better placed in the Heer section, then ok.

I bought one of each kind of these skulls said to be from the find in Berlin, and recently acquired a 2nd example of one of them. I was trying to research more about their discovery, and happened to come across a post on some other forum containing a photo of my actual examples, citing them as fakes... that was an unpleasant surprise! The internet's a small world it seems. Anyhow, after further searching there seems to be large debate over them. Some say the Berlin hoard were all fakes, others say they were subsequently faked- but nowhere did I see any posted comparisons between known originals and fakes. No definitive answers.

When I first posted these on here, it was agreed they were genuine, but I'd like to 're-open' this case for discussion, if people care to add their knowledge. Would anyone happen to be able to provide an explanation as to how the two identical skulls here show different surface colouration..? Both are from the same find, supposedly, and match up exactly other than this. The darker one appears to have an iridescent quality, similar to how oil looks, on the inside. Anyone know why this is? The lighter one has traces of sandy matter on the back, and has a slight shine coming through where details are highlighted on the front. All three exhibit what seems to be shiny solder at the prong attachments, though I don't know if this is a concern or just the nature of how the metal ages? I cannot say what metal they are made from, or if this is correct.

I feel they are original, but after reading a debate I never previously knew surrounded these particular skulls, I thought it best to attempt to try and clarify. I hope they're not fakes, I really like these...

Mat

[Jerry B]

Shiny solder would be enough for me to pass on these, but that is just me.

Regards,

Jerry

[talltom]

mat you have probably just brought a big debate to this forum and i would also like to know what our resedent experts thing i have mixed veiws they look good and bad at the same time

tom

[ToxicGas]

I do feel like opinions will be very divided, and most likely there'll be no definitive answer. This topic was definitely a 'can of worms' on the 'other' forum, after browsing. In this case, if fake I won't have lost a lot of money, but I'll be very disappointed... and I don't know what real examples look like if these aren't!

Mat

[Adrian Stevenson]

A friend of mine bought a large quantity of them still in the soil. Having been to Berlin myself and knowing the ground, IF someone was to fake them, he would have to know that Berlin is situated on sandy soil. OK, not exactly rocket science to find that out. All the examples I saw were in sandy soil. Maybe something, maybe nothing..

Cheers, Ade.

[big ned]

The one with the 'shiny solder' that is the bottom one in the photo's of the three shown together is obviously punched by a different press tool than the other two, just look at the eye sockets, jawbone, etc. Has this been pointed out before? Maybe that one is bad, and the other two good..., or vice versa,or maybe they're all good or all bad, contentious.... whaddya think?

Regards, Ned.

[ToxicGas]

The one with the 'shiny solder' that is the bottom one in the photo's of the three shown together is obviously punched by a different press tool than the other two, just look at the eye sockets, jawbone, etc. Has this been pointed out before? Maybe that one is bad, and the other two good..., or vice versa,or maybe they're all good or all bad, contentious.... whaddya think?

Regards, Ned.

It is a different skull design, two kinds were found, and that's one of them. I just have a duplicate of the other because of the differing patinas, which I thought was interesting. All of them have a somewhat shiny solder by the way, though it is most prominent on the one you mention- I still have no idea on if that's how they would have been period attached or not.

Mat

[Adrian Stevenson]

I certainly think fakers have latched onto the "hoard" story and use it to punt their wares.

Cheers, Ade.

[BenVK]

From what I remember about the Berlin finds in 2005, they were found during building construction works and it was reported in a German newspaper. They are silvered brass or tombak alloy and probably date from the Imperial era.

They were something like 10 euro each at first but were quickly bought up and scattered all over the world.

If it was all a clever scam then the faker(s) went to extreme lenghs to produce them and then age them perfectly only to sell them for peanuts. I've never seen 2 with exactly the same patina and some have very worn details whilst some are still quite crisp.

[ToxicGas]

From what I remember about the Berlin finds in 2005, they were found during building construction works and it was reported in a German newspaper. They are silvered brass or tombak alloy and probably date from the Imperial era.

They were something like 10 euro each at first but were quickly bought up and scattered all over the world.

If it was all a clever scam then the faker(s) went to extreme lenghs to produce them and then age them perfectly only to sell them for peanuts. I've never seen 2 with exactly the same patina and some have very worn details whilst some are still quite crisp.

I don't know if you can tell the metal these are made of from photos or not, but do they seem to match either of those descriptions? I'm afraid I have no idea when it comes to identifying these different metals. I could do with learning this!

Do you think these look aged by time, rather than artificially? I was happy with them, it's just I started having slight doubts upon comparing the distinctly-different appearance of the two matching skulls. And I still don't know what process caused the strange colouration of the darker one.

Mat