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Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

Article about: by d'alquen "but I do not believe it means "pure."" I apologise, I bow to your superior German knowledge, my dictionary must be wrong. rein; echt; schier; bar {adj}: pure

  1. #21

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    "but I do not believe it means "pure.""

    I apologise, I bow to your superior German knowledge, my dictionary must be wrong.

    rein; echt; schier; bar {adj}: pure

    d'alquen
    "Pure" wouldn't make sense even if it were solid silver, as that would mean something like .999.

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  3. #22

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    M 9 was the RZM designation for Fest und Tagungsabzeichen Hersteller, not for the makers of cap insignia.

    The UM has an article of 1935 or 1936 on Werkstoffe for cap insignia, which includes silver as well as Neusilber.

    I am glad to see Colleague Bob Coleman posting here and hope he is in fighting trim.


    I will try to find and post the article I saw about cap insignia, in which plain as punch, silver is mentioned as a Werkstoff.

    I just cannot remember quite where it is.

    I shall find it in a couple of days when I clear the decks of my professional tasks. The holiday season has passed and scotched my freedom to clip old Nazi periodicals.

    Postscriptum: I have spoken and written German for about 37 years ( to include professional work in higher education and government service in this language) and d'Alquen's translation of "echt" is the correct one.
    damit, basta.

  4. #23

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    If fake 800 insignia was made in the 1960's, that in no way disproves the existance of period examples. Personally, I believe slighting our knowledgable member D'Alquen's knowledge on this subject is an error in judgement.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  5. #24

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Also I would ask all in this thread to remember one salient fact: this site is NOT THE WEHRMACHT AWARDS FORUM. That is, our motto is the pursuit of knowledge, with the freedom of the diversity of opinions, and with no one proclaiming via doctrine or dogma the complete ownership of the truth.....NO ONE The German phrases are: Mundtot, and Bevormundung, i.e. that someone tries to overwhelm or otherwise silence someone through an external authority. Differences of opinion should be expressed in theories which seek proof. We can politely disagree and disagree as gentlemen or ladies.

    We strive for a higher standard here, and I am sure we can engage in a fruitful and productive reflection on this conflicted issue so as to set an example to others.

    I am utterly confident that all who read what I have written here will associate themselves with our goals. If you cannot or will not, then the other sites welcome you with open arms.

    Such is also not meant as a criticism of any of my colleagues here. Mr. Wanek has written a nice essay to put forward his ideas. Others here have countervailing ideas, theories and evidence. On the other sites this configuration leads swiftly to the internet version of the Three Stooges which I have done all in my power, as have others of you to resist, on this site.

    This issue is an old one. Why this cap insignia excites so much emotion is somewhat strange to me.

    The UM article of 1935 or 1936 caught my eye because of this old debate, and really the bulk of the evidence in UM means the quick death of a lot of gun show lore and received wisdom because the source contains contemporaries describing the facts of the moment versus our anachronistic projection of what we believe to be true onto the past.

    In other threads I have posted some of this material, in fact.

    I shall continue to do so once I have done my chores fuer meinen Dienstherrn.

    Sapere aude!
    damit, basta.

  6. #25

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    FB,
    As you point out it is hard at this distance to know with any certainty what was actually going on in that burgeoning uniform industry. For example, here is a picture I have of Hitler visiting the LAH in 1935. If everything was supplied through the VA or RZM channels what on earth would the LAH be doing with all these bolts of black and earth grey uniform material in their Lichterfelde barracks?
    d'alquen
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #26

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    FB,
    As you point out it is hard at this distance to know with any certainty what was actually going on in that burgeoning uniform industry. For example, here is a picture I have of Hitler visiting the LAH in 1935. If everything was supplied through the VA or RZM channels what on earth would the LAH be doing with all these bolts of black and earth grey uniform material in their Lichterfelde barracks?
    d'alquen
    Marvelous image and you are absolutely right. In fact, the old system of the army until 1918 was a federal one, i.e. a Prussian, Saxon, et cetera, with a series of Bekleidungsaemter, that is a decentralized system. Further, units were equipped with their own tailoring "capability" as one says in the US DoD and as proved by this rather remarkable image as to how it is likely that the LAH in late 1935 operated off the grid of the finances of the NSDAP and how scrounging from other sources filled their quartermaster need.

    In one of the UM's of 1937 there is an observation that SA and SS cloth was no where to be had in normal channels for whatever reason, and that the vendors/contractors had no ready supplies.

    I can well imagine that the SSVT and especially the LAH had its own logistics and supply organization as would befit a unit with the internal security role in event of civil war, ergo the need for autonomy.

    What I take away from my Lektuere of the UM is a central truth of Nazi Germany, rapid political and institutional change, and an overturning of customs and practices in many facets of life, as well as a total overburdening of the existing economic system devoted to armament. Think of it: the Reichswehr had been at 100,000 men since 1921 until 1932. In this period, much of the infrastructure of regalia and uniforms, badges, decorations had been struck by the death of the old army, the inflation, and then the depression. Then, in a brief period of time, the demand for uniforms, regalia, et cetera increased by somewhere near

    three hundred per cent from 1934 until 1937. Such would place a great strain on all concerned, and this fact is repeated thousands of times throughout these journals.

    The RZM did seek to regulate an astonishing range of things, but the absence of the SS from even the abstracted contents of the RZM Mitteilungsblaetter is noteworthy.

    Finally, the articles I have posted on extra uniforms and extra caps makes clear that the vendors of these items did NOT adhere to regulations and also were eager to selll flashy, fashionable and impressive things to spruce up the appearance of people in uniform, who, moreover, demanded such items.

    Thanks, colleague d'Alquen for a remarkable image.

    I am sure Adolf inherently understood the importance of the bolts of cloth so that his guardsmen had specially tailored uniforms appropriate to their representational role and could also cloth themselves in a repeat of November 1918.
    damit, basta.

  8. #27

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    If fake 800 insignia was made in the 1960's, that in no way disproves the existance of period examples.
    No one said it did. The point is that it would negate any argument put forth that silver insignia on a cap acquired during that period is evidence of originality.

    Silver insignia may very well have been produced during the TR. In fact, I would say that it is probable (more likely as privately produced unofficial insignia than mass produced official insignia in my opinion based on the facts thus far established). However, if fake silver insignia was being produced in the early 60's (and perhaps much earlier), as Mr. Toncar and others assert, no one can say, "I know silver insignia are original, because I acquired some in the 60's," as has been suggested here.

  9. #28
    ?

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    our U.S.Army brass would tarnish as did the buckle but we could buy un autherize nickle silver in town or the PX... and many other items that were non issued if you had the money

  10. #29

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    "I would say that it is probable (more likely as privately produced unofficial insignia than mass produced official insignia in my opinion based on the facts thus far established)"
    But on what exactly do you base your opinion?
    After all, personal opinions carry little weight without support.
    Here is a listing from an SS price list. I would consider that official.
    d'alquen
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  11. #30

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by bwanek1 View Post
    No one said it did. The point is that it would negate any argument put forth that silver insignia on a cap acquired during that period is evidence of originality.

    Silver insignia may very well have been produced during the TR. In fact, I would say that it is probable (more likely as privately produced unofficial insignia than mass produced official insignia in my opinion based on the facts thus far established). However, if fake silver insignia was being produced in the early 60's (and perhaps much earlier), as Mr. Toncar and others assert, no one can say, "I know silver insignia are original, because I acquired some in the 60's," as has been suggested here.
    Mr Toncar is apparently a member of this site, and he is free to express his opinion here and marshal evidence as he wishes.
    We wish he would.

    The fact is obvious that silver was used as a Werkstoff for cap badges in Germany in former times. There are many things about SS cap badges that elude definitive historical proof as we strive to offer it on this website. SS cap badges seem to cause these endless circular debates, and, Mr. Wanek, you help do us a favor to offer us something new and historically tangible as I have done and Mr. D'Alquen have done on this site. On the other site, there is a hierarchy of knowledge or half knowledge derived from what is an accident of the years since 1945. That is that a fraction of personages who bought these things half by accident in the 1950s and 1960s own an even smaller fraction of the surviving remnants of the III. Reich. How one can abstract, theorize, or generalize about this fragment of evidence is the endless theme here.

    On this site, we accept this fact as a factor in the struggle for the truth, but we seek and solicit other evidence of a more profound nature. This evidence is drawn from the period, as d'Alquen has done so, and I have done so. We look forward to you doing so, but some of us are not necessarily persuaded by the statement of one figure, however, nice a collection he might have and whatever greater historical truths he theorizes from his collection or those of a handful of other people in North America. Also, images of the items themselves are not enough. I asked you and Bob Hritz to offer us a little pictorial essay on these things, which you are free to refuse to do. Your doing so would add to your authority, help us all to understand how you think and generalize and, frankly, be far more informative than hearing your citations of a single personage, who is totally at liberty to express his own views.

    I am also sure that you understand what I write here, as I am grateful for your powers of observation and your analytical skill. We are grateful for your contribution here, to be sure, and look forward to more of same.
    However, this site has prospered while others have shriveled because we have consistently set a high standard.
    damit, basta.

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