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Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

Article about: by d'alquen "but I do not believe it means "pure."" I apologise, I bow to your superior German knowledge, my dictionary must be wrong. rein; echt; schier; bar {adj}: pure

  1. #31

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    "I would say that it is probable (more likely as privately produced unofficial insignia than mass produced official insignia in my opinion based on the facts thus far established)"
    But on what exactly do you base your opinion?
    After all, personal opinions carry little weight without support.
    Here is a listing from an SS price list. I would consider that official.
    This here is exactly what I am writing about above.

    damit, basta.

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  3. #32

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by colt45 View Post
    our U.S.Army brass would tarnish as did the buckle but we could buy un autherize nickle silver in town or the PX... and many other items that were non issued if you had the money
    Today, the U.S. Army sells both the basic [lacquer-coated] brass and electro-plated brass, which will not tarnish (aka sta-brite) for a slightly higher price. Silver-colored insignia are the same, with one addition--solid sterling silver versions of badges can also be ordered. Conclusions regarding TR German insignia can certainly not be drawn from what the U.S. Amry sells today, but I can tell you that a piece of sterling silver insignia today costs well over 10 times what the basic issue version does.

  4. #33

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    "Conclusions regarding TR German insignia can certainly not be drawn from what the U.S. Amry sells today"
    Well, at last we can agree on something.

  5. #34

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?


    I have acknowledged that price list from the start and as I previously stated, I see nothing in those few words, which makes it clear that the reference is to solid silver. It could mean that, but it could just as easily be referring to the finish/plating. All that has been offered here in support of the belief that it refers to solid silver is the percentage difference in price, which is hardly conclusive evidence. In fact, if today's prices are any indication, that price difference would be better offered as evidence that the list is not referring to solid silver.

    ALL of this discussion regarding the price list is little more than conjecture on both sides. If there are period documents which offer greater insight, I would truly love to see them.

    Until something more substantial in terms of historical documentation can be offered, I would like to also ask those who believe that the price list refers to solid silver this simple question. If solid silver insignia were an official production item, which was, at least for a brief period in time, widely available, where have they all gone? Today, we see ample examples of both neusilber and silver-plated pieces, but no one can seem to point to one surviving example of a similar piece in solid silver.

  6. #35

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    ...some of us are not necessarily persuaded by the statement of one figure, however, nice a collection he might have and whatever greater historical truths he theorizes from his collection or those of a handful of other people in North America.
    My only reference to Mr. Toncar was with regard to his claim to firsthand knowledge of individuals (whom he states he can name) who produced fake silver cap insignia in the early 60's. That claim has nothing to do with the size and nature of his collection. His personal recollection is also not a theory; it is a firsthand account of events he experienced and observations he made. It could be that his memory is faulty, but, barring that (and the possibility that he is simply dishonest), I do not see how one could disagree with what he knows from his personal experience.

  7. #36

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Silver was 42 cents an ounce in 1938. My resource is, who has silver price charts going back to 1888.

    Now, with silver being so cheap, it would make sense for echt silber to cost 3 times the cost of aluminum, CuPal, or tombak. The value was in the workmanship, not the metallic content, with only a fraction of an ounce of silver needed to make the insignia, and it being alloyed down to 80% silver.

    I have only seen 3 silver content marked skulls and 3 eagles that I would believe are original. One was on Bob Coleman's hat, examined in 1970, one on David Delich's hat, examined in 1968, and one loose skull that was in a dealer's inventory, in the 1970s. Back then, it was 4 or 5 times the $35.00 value of a skull and I would not pay the price.

    I owned one eagle, now in a collection in Wisconsin, and I had seen 2 others.

    Now, I have not seen these in 4 decades and I may change my mind if I saw them today. However, the existance, in pricelists, leads me to believe they were made, but with very poor success in marketing. In all reality, why would you want something so prone to tarnish on your visor hat? The need to polish insignia would do more damage to the velvet hat band than one would want. I think it was a foolish marketing idea and obviously not one that was very successful, from the lack of examples that survived the 3rd Reich.

    Bob Hritz

  8. #37

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?


  9. #38

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    that was Leo Watermeier from New Orleans,,,

  10. #39

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Quote by bwanek1 View Post
    I would hardly call it a "rumor." Jim Toncar is no novice in this field and he seemed to be quite certain when he wrote this to you:

    "Bob Coleman; They where faking these silver fittings in the early 1960's I know for a fact two New York dealers ( send me a PM and I will give you there names ) that made batches of these 800 fine fittings. Just for your personal knowledge some of the best copies of SS hats where made from existing parts right after the war for GI's, that is why on some headgear they look right and yet certain parts cannot be explained . The explanation of why the RZM markings should not be there in this post is so logical that I do not see how anyone could find fault with it . I too saw hats in the early 1960's with these fittings " I definitely do not think they where real " but then I did....
    jim toncar"
    What am I missing ? the above is true. If a period reference or Price List is introduced to the collecting community today then this becomes the up-dated version , I agree , but then the question becomes "what does this new thing look like" ? that said I still know the two New York dealers that made these skulls /eagles stamped 800 ,I have shared this with the Forums. In fact I still have one in my desk drawer. With the internet we can view collections all over the world , perhaps someone will show a example of a original one ? maybe Delich ? maybe we can also see a original 3 pronged skull ? but for me when you factor in all the fake stuff that is and has been made in our hobby I think I would rather take the middle ground with known and accepted patterns . Call it old wives tales , gossip or ? when your spending a lot of money you had better be right . Granted we did not have the luxury of certain types of reference work or the internet available in the early years , the truth be told if you where a collector in say 1960- 85 how else was there to learn ? . So getting back to the "800" series I can only tell you what I have seen and heard these past 45 wonderful years ( right or wrong), and these fittings where surly found on fake hats "Big Time" made in New York State and yes I agree they are also listed by the RZM " FOR SURE " ....
    Certainly a great lively discussion .

  11. #40

    Default Re: Did they make SS skulls from Silver?

    Hi Guys, thank you for an interesting thread. I think the standard of debate here is what sets us apart and is what I wish to positivly encourage: Evidence presented in a clear, factual and polite way.

    If it came to buying one of these, to quote Mr Toncar, "I would rather take the middle ground with known and accepted patterns" this would be my take on the subject too.

    I would really like to get a pinned thread on the subject of original SS cap insignia going. This would be really helpful. These peices of insignia have an almost mystical hold over many collectors, especially the new ones. A good reference in one place would be a real bonus for the forum. Clear photos along with descriptive text so a search engine will bring up the item.

    Cheers, Ade.

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