unknown original SS skull

[carlsson1982]

It looks like the Deschler but from far away, (it could be also another die) but It does'nt look like a basic Deschler, the sutures are different, the theeth-configuration, the eyebridge..

Can we see yours F.B?

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I am sorry to write that I do have not a working camera and I have no image of the thing. It came from Hritz at the beginning of the decade. Who knows? These debates always go in circles. I think the data in the Saris book is as close to common sense as we are likely to come to anything close to the truth. The images I have posted are all from several years ago, or originated from those better with the camera.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I am sorry to write that I do have not a working camera and I have no image of the thing. It came from Hritz at the beginning of the decade. Who knows? These debates always go in circles. I think the data in the Saris book is as close to common sense as we are likely to come to anything close to the truth. The images I have posted are all from several years ago, or originated from those better with the camera.

I also think in fundamental terms that the unknown unknowns in all of this are pretty enormous. Hence, I am sure evidence can easily emerge that overturns much group think and received wisdom. But I also claim no fundamental expertise in this, save from the ownership of more than one piece of this insignia, some of which I have illustrated here. Bob Coleman can vouch for my collection, in fact.

The bulk of these pieces in pre war caps tend to be Deschler, while the Overhoff and Zimmermann variants multiply in the war time caps. But surely other firms made these of which we know nothing. Especially the Overhoff variant seems present in many intact wartime grey caps, but this is highly impressionistic.
I even think that the Deschler firm got bombed out, which is something one could confirm with them, since they are still in business in Munich Feldkirchen. But who really knows? I never have time in Germany to pursue these things.

I would also say that certain of the experts in this material on the other sites demonstrate a real unfamiliarity with Germany, the German language, the actual characteristics of the regalia trade and industry and a scorn for the work of historical professionals all of which highly undermines whatever credibility they have. This generalization does not apply, of course, to colleagues Hritz and Bwanek, whose postings make sense to me. While US militaria meets are a fine and glorious thing, they are not the sole source of evidence about which to generalize in a historical manner about these infernal little pieces of tin and cooper alloy.

Once more, Wm Saris also seems to have found a lot of documentary material that is of merit and germane to this un ending story.

[BenVK]

to BenVK: all the skulls posted are from the same die, so they're all similar
look at the theeth, the eyebrows..

No, they are certainly not all from the same die. Deschler & Sohn would have used many different dies depending on whether the material being used was zinc, cupal, aluminium etc and of course the year or even time of year of manufacture as dies wear out. The differences would be subtle but different none the less.

In all respect, I don't know what you want to hear about this. The Ray Ban skull is not at all similar to any known Deschler made skull that I know of. Plus, some of the "Deschlers" on the caps shown here and are for sale by a certain dealer would need to examined more closely IMO just to prove that they are indeed genuine.

I'll get in touch with Brad who is much more knowledgeable than I on this subject to hear what he's says.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Deschler & Sohn is still in business in the environs of Munich, as one glides out of town to the airport. Someone go ask them how the materials (Werkstoffe) and dies and what not worked in 1934 or 1939. Or ask the museum of applied arts and sciences somewhere in Germany that would know also. This is what I am saying: get some real knowledge in contrast to speculation. Otherwise, so much of it is pointless guessing based on incomplete evidence. These little pieces of metal are sphinxes. They smile at us from across the abyss in part because their presence makes us insane. I guess that is the attraction of the infernal things.

[BenVK]

Again, with respect FB, this isn't pure speculation. A lot of us have put in a hours and hours of study of known originals, the materials, the die differences etc etc.

But, I take your point wholeheartedly about going there and asking them. Would they know though and even if they did, would they be willing to discuss? I doubt it. If anyone would be able to get the information, I betting it would be you!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Again, with respect FB, this isn't pure speculation. A lot of us have put in a hours and hours of study of known originals, the materials, the die differences etc etc.

But, I take your point wholeheartedly about going there and asking them. Would they know though and even if they did, would they be willing to discuss? I doubt it. If anyone would be able to get the information, I betting it would be you!

Dear Ben, my comment was not directed at you. Truth be told, I own somewhat more of these than certain collectors, but as you also know, I am a professional historian where there are standards of evidence and procedures to solve historical questions, which are
NOT adhered to by others, (I do not mean you...) on other sites. Further, I am completely certain that are experts in Germany who know exactly how these things worked (i.e. the materials and processes used ca. 1936), perhaps even at Deschler, and there is more than a fair chance that they would tell us, you, Robert H. or someone. I never have enough time.

I am also fairly certain, as I have written for years on other sites, that there was a bureaucratic procedure for the contracting of these items, and none and I mean NONE of the other little tin thingy experts EVER CITE ANY OF THIS EVIDENCE AT ALL.....

Wm. Saris does and I am actually reading his book on black SS headwear, which I bought in Germany even though it is published hereabouts, and it contains so much more knowledge and information than routinely circulates on these sites. It is appalling at how little people read, and Saris and the other authors have, in fact, done a lot of solid research.

And, might I make the point as regards time over target, that I have been professionally engaged in this material since on or about 1975 on a full time basis. That is, (...and since this fact always enraged others...) I earn my living as a professional laborer in the past, though I surely am not a lecturer of SS cap badges.

The lions of the MAX and the SOS do not cut it for me when the questions requires skill, art and craft of a solid kind.

There are others on sites who claim that their works in progress will answer all the questions and blind us with their knowledge, but said works are always forthcoming.....and forthcoming and the questions remain.

Maybe in November I will have time to ask the Deschler people. I think others have already done so.

Happy "sculls" to all.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

The dust up on the other site as concerns SS Ehrenringe is a case in point when a non professional with a conflict of interest engages in "research" over which there is no quality control whatsoever. The dagger king's famous book of 1965 is an outstanding example of this genre, whereas I must say that the Saris book has a few wrinkles, but the knowledge in the text itself is impressive. The standard remains the Mollo books, which should well be updated, whereas many of the Schiffer books are pretty, but on shaky ground in many aspects.


Of course, what I am writing here demands a high standard, and such is also a declaration of war on the customs and habits of certain collectors, whose motivation in this material is something other than knowledge. Such is always the case.

Once more, happy "sculls" and Coupal to the world.

May your zinc thingies not be devoured by the march of time.

Dear Ben, when you come to my part of the world, I will show you my "sculls." But you may not pry them off the caps. I am even afraid to get near them, because I think my bad breath makes them fall apart. Plus, granted how little time Providence gives me on this planet, I spend my time more looking at women or the faces of cute dogs.

[BenVK]

Skulls, women, cute dogs and bad breath. You do cover a lot of ground in your posts FB!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Skulls, women, cute dogs and bad breath. You do cover a lot of ground in your posts FB!

Thanks, dear Ben, such are the effects of calcification of the brain in its later stages. One day I shall show you the "sculls" if you make it this way. Of course, I really try not to touch these things at all for reasons you can well understand as a man of insight, craft and art.

Servus.