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Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

Article about: Robert is a very fine man, whom I regard highly. I believe this is not a Verfuegungstruppe uniform, but from a member of the Allgemeine SS. The later species of tunic, from 1936/ 1937 ish on

  1. #11

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    Robert is a very fine man, whom I regard highly. I believe this is not a Verfuegungstruppe uniform, but from a member of the Allgemeine SS. The later species of tunic, from 1936/ 1937 ish onward is very extensively marked, with all the metal ware RZM and SS marked and usually with a VA stamp. The black tag in the pocket is distinctive in the original form, while the fakes are usually botched. The textiles in these tunics are also distinctive, and the fakes do not get it right, either, since such textiles can be said to exist no longer. That is, the firms that made them have vanished and no one can easily imitate precisely this quality of cloth. While the specifications for such fabric can be found, I am doubtful that they are easily copied.

    There are good fakes of these black tunics, as well as many of same extracted from Ostblock film studios. This piece did or did not have its badges removed, which should be easy to see with a glass.

    I also note that images I was able to add here in the past are now being coughed back at me, which means that I am technically challenged on how to make pictures itsy bitsy to work here.

    Bob's comment about the search for bargains in this material leading to heart break is spot on. If you make short cuts with this stuff, you are merely summoning the devil.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 07-01-2010 at 05:12 PM.
    damit, basta.

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  3. #12
    ?

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    I have not handled many black rocks of the officer grade wool trikot, but the "hand" and weave is so distinct, it leaves a strong impression. Due to random life experience I did pick up a bit of knowledge about modern textiles and manufacturing. But the period trikot really does not compare to anything modern.

    It is a dense tight weave of very fine wool. I imagine if any of the looms survive today, finding comparable raw wool with what I imagine to be organic black dyes would be nearly impossible.

    Are they any insights into the manufacturing processes of this lush material?

    Isn't it interesting to compare prewar officer's trikot to last ditch recycled wool and cellulose tunics?

    Forget not, sheep were a strategic resource for warfighting mid-last century.


    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    Robert is a very fine man, whom I regard highly. I believe this is not a Verfuegungstruppe uniform, but from a member of the Allgemeine SS. The later species of tunic, from 1937 ish onward is very extensively marked, with all the metal ware RZM and SS marked and usually with a VA stamp. The black tag in the pocket is distinctive in the original form, while the fakes are usually botched. The textiles in these tunics are also distinctive, and the fakes do not get it right, either, since such textiles can be said to exist no longer. That is, the firms that made them have vanished and no one can easily imitate precisely this quality of cloth. While the specifications for such fabric can be found, I am doubtful that they are easily copied.

    There are good fakes of these black tunics, as well as many of same extracted from Ostblock film studios. This piece did or did not have its badges removed, which should be easy to see with a glass.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    Quote by Tricot View Post
    I have not handled many black rocks of the officer grade wool trikot, but the "hand" and weave is so distinct, it leaves a strong impression. Due to random life experience I did pick up a bit of knowledge about modern textiles and manufacturing. But the period trikot really does not compare to anything modern.

    It is a dense tight weave of very fine wool. I imagine if any of the looms survive today, finding comparable raw wool with what I imagine to be organic black dyes would be nearly impossible.

    Are they any insights into the manufacturing processes of this lush material?

    Isn't it interesting to compare prewar officer's trikot to last ditch recycled wool and cellulose tunics?

    Forget not, sheep were a strategic resource for warfighting mid-last century.
    The specifications for much of this is found in the reprinted Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM. There also exist cloth sample books used for the sales of textiles, which Stezelberger tends to get from time to time at staggering prices.

    The textile industry was a major focus of the Four Year Plan, granted the need for imports and the imperative to use the chemical industry to replace raw materials paid for with hard currency in short supply. All once a thing of the past and now a matter of the future!

    Germany is filled with the ghosts of abandoned factories in many places, where the textile trade was wiped out by foreign competition and changing tastes. It is also why my recent request here in my town to resole a shoe was met with an incredulous stare from behind the globalized counter.

    All too droll surely....all too droll.

    PS this image is the Hotel Kaiserhof at war's end, not a textile factory but AH's home away from home before he became chancellor.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    damit, basta.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    I also saw this tunic on Roberts site and thought if only, I'd love to own this! Congrats CMH! Jay.

  6. #15
    ?

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT(?) Tunic to share with you

    Thank you F-B for your evaluation and input, I value your opinions greatly and find most of the enjoyment of participating in this hobby is in the exchange of information between knowledgeable historians such as you and the others we find in this forum. The headgear, uniforms, and dreaded "skulls" are one thing, but the illumination of topics that may appear droll to some are new vistas into the past for me and, it seems, a few others. My hat (sans "skull") is off to you for your wealth of knowledge and your willingness to share - my deepest thanks.

    I believe you are correct in this not being a Verfgtr. uniform. I at first believed it to be so based upon a few pieces of the supporting documentation that were included in the group. I must take care as not to further spread misinformation - much as two years of Deutsch in no way enabled me to understand technical German; it helps little more in unlocking mysteries found in SS Hauptamt files. It appears that the owner of this tunic was discharged from the 2/SS "Deutschland” sometime around January 1937, if my college did a decent job of educating me...

    This tunic is devoid of any tailor labels and if it had a VA stamp it has fallen victim to time or wear. As to the textiles used I can speak with no authority as this is the first tunic I have ever handled. I own a M34 cap that has the same tactile qualities... the smell and feel are distinct and unlike anything I have encountered from recent manufacture.

    I am almost positive that no insignia were applied to this tunic. If there ever were then they were removed with extreme care. Absolutely zero evidence under magnification of any collar insignia.

    Attached is another picture of the collar stitching and this man's NSDAP registration card.

    Addendum (6/12/13): Given the recent interest in this thread, I will attach a copy of his Stammrollenblatt here for study:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by DrCMH; 06-12-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  7. #16

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    Whoops, then I am in error. He was in the SS VT, so I mis spoke.
    Thanks for the kind words. There are others who know much more, have done more research and own more interesting items. I recall seeing an Allgemeine SS unit mark or Laepchen, i.e. name tag. The man in question appears to come from Robert's Heimat and was a book binder by profession, something very close to my heart.

    Best of luck with your collecting, your loyal FB
    damit, basta.

  8. #17
    ?

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    Perhaps you are not in error though, the metal items on this tunic are all heavily marked and he does have a label inside indicating SS-Sturm 7/31. Does this follow with your initial thoughts? The label also indicates he is an SS-Mann but other documents list him as Rottenführer until his discharge from the SS. Is it possible that he could have moved between the two? Forgive my ignorance on this, I am still trying to understand the structure in the SS.

    Regards,

    CMH

  9. #18

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    Very nice piece, DrCMH. Thanks for sharing it. Might we see some pictures of the cap?

  10. #19
    ?

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Visor to share with you

    Of course Tony,

    The visor is a Wagner as the other more educated members have stated and true to what has been said it seems quite delicate. The body is made of Trikot and it feels so thin that you could almost poke your finger through the top ! The sweatshield is amazingly intact and seems in mint condition as is the ersatz sweatband. No insignia have ever been placed on this cap from what I see, just as R.H. had conveyed. It appears to have collapsed a bit at the peak but still an excellent example.

    As far as a representation of textiles go this group has a lot. The tunic is Tuch, the breeches a heavy and quite nice trikot and the cap as I described above.

    As always, forgive my photography. I lack the equipment and the skill to take anything of much use.

    CMH
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  11. #20

    Default Re: Allgemeine SS-VT Tunic to share with you

    It looks good at any rate! It needs an eagle and totenkopf--well, depending on your philosophy on such things. I suppose there are those who would see the additions as a perversion, especially considering no insignia has ever been added to the cap before. Some would no doubt see these actions as making a "parts cap" though if the insignia is period and of the right type I don't see too much of an issue. Who knows how many times insignia were replaced on caps during the period.

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