Another great ebay visor cap

[BOB COLEMAN]

I think I would have taken about the same time to make up my mind as you did Bob!

The point I was trying to make however is this. A pre war cap is discovered, sometimes with wartime insignia or none at all, no problem there, they were subject to changes of insignia of course or have survived to this day without insignia at all. What I find fascinating though is the fact that a cap from the VT era survived so long on the head of the owner right through the change of insignia and right up to the point of being a souvenir for the allied soldiers arriving in France in 44. The fact that this particular cap was bought from Canada would suggest that don't you agree? Unless of course that the Canada connection is a complete red herring? I don't know, just seems quite amazing to me that such a lot of pre war caps ended up in American/Canadian hands and are now being sold on.

Ben-

I am sure the reason is that the Canadians and the Americans went up against elements of LAH and Das Reich, both SS-VT units. They also clashed with 12th SS Panzer Hitler Jugend. The officer and NCO cadre of this division were drawn mainly from LAH. It would stand to reason that an officer or NCO would not be wearing his brand new walking out dress cap in to combat. They would be wearing an older, disposable cap. I believe this is also the reason we see period late war pictures of SS officers in branch piped caps. I have never believed these were made late war. It is far more likely that the owners of these caps ordered several during the approved period and continued to wear them in the field as they were obsolete and disposable.

[BenVK]

So you're saying that some cap souvenirs brought/sent back by Allied troops after D-Day were caps of pre war manufacture or in the case of piped ss caps, of the 1940's era?
I guess you could be right, why not? These things have survived to this day in such good condition that it makes sense that they survived 3 or 4 years back then.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

One should also recall that Germany had a rationed economy well before war began, and especially at the outbreak of war, there were acute restrictions on textiles---even for men at arms. Hence, the imperative to thrift was uppermost. This debate also is testament to how thrift and the husbanding on one's few possessions has become a historical curiosity in a world of profligate excess.

Also, the German military had the system of rated Garnituren, i.e. the newest, best order of dress, then a second rate one and those in the Kleidungskammer were also so rated.

In any case, the ebay cap is a major coup and should be a source of great pride to its owner. And we are happy to see it, too. I also note the lack of sane analysis on the other websites, to boot.

Happy head wear.

[BOB COLEMAN]

So you're saying that some cap souvenirs brought/sent back by Allied troops after D-Day were caps of pre war manufacture or in the case of piped ss caps, of the 1940's era?
I guess you could be right, why not? These things have survived to this day in such good condition that it makes sense that they survived 3 or 4 years back then.

Ben-
I have never been a believer in branch piped SS hats being manufactured later in the war because "an officer wanted one."
Anyone who studies the SS knows that "orders were orders."
Any obsolete uniforms were allowed a wear out period of 18 months. With war shortages, I have no doubt that these regulations were not strictly adhered to. Many collectors have a tendency to believe a SS officer might have one or two visor caps.
This of course is total rubbish as he would have a least one if not two black hats. Several gray hats with the best left at home for wear on leave would of course be a certainty. Likely at least two at the front. One for combat wear and another for meetings and formal occasions. He might own more. When the distinction of being able to wear a branch piped visor cap became a reality, I would not be suprised to find that individual officers may have ordered at least 3-4 caps. I have a mid war Totenkopf uniform that was left at home. Along with the uniform were found two brand new visor caps-one still with the price tag on the chin cord.
One would expect that the majority of these early hats were to be found among the cadre of the early VT units

[John Brandon]

Might be a bit off track with this, but seeing the pictures of the cap Bob posted a few posts back, reminded me of a cap I owned a few years ago, when I started dealing. It was exactly like that one.......................... I had it approx 20 years, and decided to sell part of my collection. I knew it was real. Do you think that I could sell it? Not one person offered, they all looked at shows I went to, but because I was "new" on the dealer front, no one would buy it. I went to the SOS took it with me, and sold it to the first person I showed it to which happened to be Wolf Hardin. Funny thing is, I sold it for a lot more than what I was asking for here in the UK...nowt so strange as TR collecting

[BenVK]

I've been to a few shows in the UK and was at first, completely awestruck but what seemed to be all these fantastic original items for sale. However after a few years of studying, it became very apparent that 99% of it was bogus so I don't bother anymore.I think it's been a bit of a sickness in the UK, that for years now, a lot of the established dealers are so used to buying and selling questionable things and making a decent living at doing so, they loose sight of how to tell or even bother to study what an original item is supposed to look like.
From talking to a few or the older UK dealers, the very fact that they got their items, according to them, direct from the families who had a father, uncle, cousin etc who fought during the war, seems to be enough for them and constitutes originality. Or the other reason seems to be that mentality that you've been doing this for years and should not be questioned.
There's one dealer I used to know, lovely guy, salt of the earth. He's been dealing for 40 years but he'd jump right in and buy stuff that he shouldn't just like a novice. Something to do with forgetting most of what you've learn't? or never having to specialise in one area? I don't know but I when I used to visit him and he'd got a few caps in and was all excited about showing them to me, I could never bring myself to tell him that they were dodgy. I would just look at them and say, ooh, very nice and say I was short of money and couldn't buy them.

[BenVK]

Ben-
I have never been a believer in branch piped SS hats being manufactured later in the war because "an officer wanted one."
Anyone who studies the SS knows that "orders were orders."
Any obsolete uniforms were allowed a wear out period of 18 months. With war shortages, I have no doubt that these regulations were not strictly adhered to. Many collectors have a tendency to believe a SS officer might have one or two visor caps.
This of course is total rubbish as he would have a least one if not two black hats. Several gray hats with the best left at home for wear on leave would of course be a certainty. Likely at least two at the front. One for combat wear and another for meetings and formal occasions. He might own more. When the distinction of being able to wear a branch piped visor cap became a reality, I would not be suprised to find that individual officers may have ordered at least 3-4 caps. I have a mid war Totenkopf uniform that was left at home. Along with the uniform were found two brand new visor caps-one still with the price tag on the chin cord.
One would expect that the majority of these early hats were to be found among the cadre of the early VT units

There's been a lot of discussion about piped ss caps. I don't agree 100% with what Bob is saying but it's the most insightful post I've read on the subject so far. The only point I disagree on is the assumption that all piped caps seen in period photos after the allowed regulation dates were ones bought within that restricted period because "orders were orders in the SS". I just don't buy that. What I would buy is that pink piped cap on the shelf of a clothing store because I am an SS Officer of the LAH and I most probably will be dead within a month so to hell with the regulations.

[Paul D]

Very interesting discussion guys keep it going

[John Brandon]

I've been to a few shows in the UK and was at first, completely awestruck but what seemed to be all these fantastic original items for sale. However after a few years of studying, it became very apparent that 99% of it was bogus so I don't bother anymore.I think it's been a bit of a sickness in the UK, that for years now, a lot of the established dealers are so used to buying and selling questionable things and making a decent living at doing so, they loose sight of how to tell or even bother to study what an original item is supposed to look like.
From talking to a few or the older UK dealers, the very fact that they got their items, according to them, direct from the families who had a father, uncle, cousin etc who fought during the war, seems to be enough for them and constitutes originality. Or the other reason seems to be that mentality that you've been doing this for years and should not be questioned.
There's one dealer I used to know, lovely guy, salt of the earth. He's been dealing for 40 years but he'd jump right in and buy stuff that he shouldn't just like a novice. Something to do with forgetting most of what you've learn't? or never having to specialise in one area? I don't know but I when I used to visit him and he'd got a few caps in and was all excited about showing them to me, I could never bring myself to tell him that they were dodgy. I would just look at them and say, ooh, very nice and say I was short of money and couldn't buy them.

totally agree with your statements Ben. It's scarey to think that some peoples perception(NOT MINE) of the collector world is
"If its good enough to fool me, then it will fool 99% of the collectors out there"

Sad but true

[BenVK]

The other thing that sticks on my mind about UK dealers is popping into Blunderbuss antiques in London one time, I used to work just around the corner.
I asked them if they had any German caps for sale that were not on show (the ones on shelf were bad) and they said no, they don't deal in that kind of thing anymore because 1. too many fakes 2. they couldn't tell the good stuff from the bad nowadays. 3. It wasn't worth the hassle anymore with people returning stuff because of those bloody forums!