Not really, I am not big on unqualified persons with opinions on important items or any items, some qualified people have differences of opinion on items as well albeit more fact based. But to dismiss the item as a "Crude reproduction" was a real surprise to me. Of course those are photo's of photographs but I would think an educated eye would still be able to be a bit more cautious and not so quick to dismiss it out of hand. I can't say it changes the opinions of those commenting on items they don't know at all and clearly it was more than the fact they thought it was ugly, as I came in early to state the trumpet banner was original. And those photo's are mine but others may have them as well.
04-17-2014 07:56 PM
This is likely a very educational thread. At the begining, we had a rush to judgement that was not based on personal knowledge of the subject. We then had period photos documenting the originality of the form and style. When the forum first started, I posted several SS Totenkopf command flags that were also judged in the same manner. Period photos also proved the critics wrong. It is better to hold an opinion on a item if you do not have personal knowledge or at least post with a caveat of lack of first hand knowledge.
LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.
Bob i have photos saved even ones of your flags and when i need photos i cant find them . And one bill shea had a few years ago like the one coming up ,he offerd it to me to pay off but with the excahnge rate it would have killed me ,
by BOB COLEMAN
i have a photo of a guy in the usa i have been trying to find him again , he has a room with about 6-7 of these hanging my o my
I made a comment I believe to be factual, if that comment is in error I am happy to be shown to be incorrect.
I am not an expert on these nor pretend to be, but I do know what the correct "winking skull" trumpet banner, schellenbaum banner and drum skirt look like and the extremely high quality of the construction and craftsmanship, the correct materials used, all in detail from studying both other known examples from detailed photography of known originals combined with in hand examination.
That gives me some requisite knowledge on the subject but that is all and is all I claim.
I apologize if I offended anyone by saying "I believe this is a crude reproduction" of the other winking skull posted Ajax posted. However it is my opinion based upon no period photos of that left facing skull that I have seen, what I see of the construction and craftsmanship, the materials, the facing and it's similarity to other fakes I have seen. I have posted both mine and the "crude reproduction" for comparison. I think one might see differences that I see?
If the period photo of the LAH drum skirt Ajax posted is supposed to be that "crude reproduction" skull I commented on, I would respectfully differ. Quite simply they are not, the skull I believe to be a "crude repro" is facing the opposite direction than the one in the period photo for starters and a wealth of other easy to spot details which to me, clearly make it a different skull than the one posted.
I take and have taken no offence to any comments posted.
I cannot say I am terribly offended and scarred for life over your comments, I think I was just surprised. I have seen the Schell's and the trumpet banners and have handled both items in person over the years. The material construction is not terribly wide but you know there is a little wiggle there. I think the photos that I posted which I took off of large format 35mm Prints are deceptive, but the materials and construction of this drape which I have also handled are not the same as a trumpet banner nor a schell flag and I am really not sure they should be. I understand the study and intense scrutiny that is placed upon SS items of this type, and the collectors that collect them and how that information is applied. I believe if you were standing on top of this piece you would see what I mean and what the piece is and its process of manufacture. The picture simply depicts an early SS LAH drum drape in use, but you don't see the whole drape. I would draw your attention to the Adler however which is part of the same piece and that should give you a somewhat clearer picture. Other than that its no biggy and I have no intention of arguing about it, I am sure as an SS collector you retain the standard " Bat Phone " for network inquiries, seek and you shall find the answers. ;o)
Thank you and no harm no foul.
No worries, I was not sure about the adler part of the drape, but as said, I am no authority on these one way or the other. I have seen some reproductions of the skull very similar to the one you posted up, and made the assumption it was one and the same. As said, period photos tend to prove all when enough detail is seen, failing that comparison of the materials and construction methods, the elite craftsmanship is hard to replicate I find for these high quality parade and ceremony items of any regiment.
Thanks and take care Ajax. All is well. :-)
My second mia culpa for this thread seeing I was the first unqualified dissenter.
I have been scholared by this forum over the years to question any TR item that exhibited odd appearance.
I thought this one did - I was wrong, the 'winking skull' is accepted by the long term collectors as original.
Please accept my apologies colleagues.
" When you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, give a whistle "
No need to apologize from my part Dan. Innocent comments were made with no ill intent, and in the end the thread served a good purpose.
One thing I look for especially in early SS items, regardless how strange an item looks, is I look for a supremely high quality of detailed and minute craftsmanship and old world skill that goes into the construction of the item, something reproductions generally miss.
The SS Market with its demand and low survival rates is increasing prices to a level where it is worth it for skilled craftsman to take time to make better fakes, it has also changed the game for the SS collector, who is now in many cases forced to look at every aspect of every item in every way. They are scientific, analytic, and efficient and work within a network. Photo's, lineage, previous owners, tracking, organizational knowledge, etc. If you want to collect SS you need money and you need to keep your back to the wall and your essentially a target for fakers and fraudsters and some may even be within that same network. This is not an area for the meek.
The only downside is when you start to have to function at that level, you start to apply the same eye to other items, and this applies to any piece. When that happens you miss good pieces. With SS not so many as you do with others because your not tripping over good SS rarities too often. Putting together collections of some of the material that is shown on this forum is a lot of work. With the SS you can expect a high level of craftsmanship in most all cases, its just that good and unless you handle it and know it your not going anywhere and that is not even enough today. Trumpet banners are easy in the scheme of things, cannot say I have the patience to collect SS much anymore.