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BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

Article about: Now the image from our friend in Europe shows more or less how the "Friedrich Schlegel" cuff title might look, i.e. construction, Alugespinst embroidery etc. Were the cuff title pr

  1. #71

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Thanks to Mr. d'Alquen for the further information, and as always, to our stalwart German friend for his fine translations. The further details that unfold are always dramatic. Does a file of Diebtisch's work exist? That is, the correspondence that governed his creative undertakings?
    damit, basta.

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  3. #72

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    Yes HPL, I too found this interesting when I first saw it. I was unaware of the practice so looked into it a bit more. The usage didn't last long. Himmler, by October of 1937, had already requested a sleeve diamond design to replace it from Diebitsch.
    Here is a piece of the correspondence concerning the badge and cuff title.
    As always, many thanks for sharing! This being another item of general interest, allow me to add the translation for this document as well:



    "Berlin, 16 February 1938.

    The Chief of the
    SS-Hauptamt
    Führungsamt
    I/R file reference 23 d / 14/10/37.

    RE: Sleeve badge for the members of the tournament- and racing community RFSS.

    Attachments: -1-

    To:
    The Chief of the Personal Staff of the
    Reichsführer-SS,
    SS-Gruppenführer Wolff,
    Berlin.


    With the letter of the Chief of the
    SS-Hauptamt, I/R file reference 23 d / 14/10/37, the request for the authorization of a new sleeve badge for the members of the tournament- and racing community RFSS had been submitted.

    Simultaneously, the appointment of
    SS-Haupsturmführer G. Temme as the head of this tournament- and racing community RFSS had been proposed.

    According to information from the
    Verwaltungsamt-SS of 4 February 1938, the Reichsführer-SS has authorized a new sleeve badge designed by SS-Obersturmbannführer Diebitsch.

    In order to notify the units, the attached draft for an order is thus submitted for obtainment of the signature of the
    Reichsführer-SS.

    The Chief of the SS-Hauptamt
    per pro

    [signed: Zech]

    SS-Gruppenführer"



    (See here for more on Günter Temme, including a photograph of him wearing the "SS-Hpt.-Reitschule München" cuff title: Axis History Forum • View topic - Temme and Wendel )

    One more question: Is this new sleeve badge the familiar "crossed lances" sleeve diamond?

    It's usually described in the standard references (there, I've used the term again...) as the sleeve badge for all equestrian formations of the SS, but if it is the badge referenced in this letter it would be just for the members of said tournament- and racing community.

    Then again, if it isn't - Just how did this new sleeve badge look?

  4. #73

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Thanks to our German friend for his translation. I looked in the normal online sources as concerns Diebitsch, and it is odd that the claim is made that he designed the black SS uniform, when he joined the SS in the fall of 1933, at which time the uniform was well in use.
    damit, basta.

  5. #74

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    HPL,
    I don't think the badge was the crossed lances. That piece of insignia had been in place for at least 4 years by 1938 so wouldn't have called for a design. I have never tracked down the badge. The last mention I ever found of it was an instruction to put an announcement in the 1938 SS-Befehlsblatt, but then I could never find the published announcement; strange. One year after it's still not listed in the 1939 price list.
    The Diebitsch material I have found doesn't reveal too much about his design work for the SS. A few sketches, etc. and that's about it. Here is a document from him that I believe is regarding the badge proposal we are talking about. I can muddle along with printed German but sutterlin script is a struggle.
    d'alquen
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #75

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Thank you for the further data.

    I believe the document from Diebitsch says that his design has been approved by the RFSS and, in turn, has been passed to Standartenfuehrer Loerner to be carried out. I believe this is the Loerner responsible for uniforms and such.Name:  KarlDiebitsch.jpg
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    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-19-2012 at 05:33 AM.
    damit, basta.

  7. #76

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    HPL,
    I don't think the badge was the crossed lances. That piece of insignia had been in place for at least 4 years by 1938 so wouldn't have called for a design. I have never tracked down the badge. The last mention I ever found of it was an instruction to put an announcement in the 1938 SS-Befehlsblatt, but then I could never find the published announcement; strange. One year after it's still not listed in the 1939 price list.
    The Diebitsch material I have found doesn't reveal too much about his design work for the SS. A few sketches, etc. and that's about it. Here is a document from him that I believe is regarding the badge proposal we are talking about. I can muddle along with printed German but sutterlin script is a struggle.
    I understand the feeling. Sütterlin is a complete pain in the neck for me to read as well and all but impossible for me to decypher if someone had bad handwriting. Luckily, Diebitsch's was fairly good. It says:



    "Karl Diebitsch, München, Franz Josefstraße 28


    München
    Franz Josefstraße 28
    23.I.38.


    An den
    Reichsführer-SS
    Persönlicher Stab
    Berlin SW. 11
    Prinz Albrechtstr. 8

    Betreff:

    Einliegendes Schreiben zur Beinahme
    zu Ihren Akten.

    Der Reichsführer-SS hat den ihm von mir
    vorgelegten neuen Entwurf genehmigt.
    Der Entwurf ist SS-Standartenführer Loerner
    zur Ausführung zugeleitet worden.


    [signed: Karl Diebitsch]

    SS-Hauptsturmführer"


    ...meaning:


    "Karl Diebitsch, Munich, Franz Josefstraße 28


    Munich
    Franz Josefstraße 28
    23/1/38.


    To the:

    Reichsführer-SS
    Personal Staff
    Berlin SW. 11
    Prinz Albrechtstr. 8

    Re:

    Attached letter to be taken
    into your files.

    The
    Reichsführer-SS
    has approved the
    new design submitted by me.
    The design has been forwarded to
    SS-Standartenführer Loerner
    for the purpose of implementation.


    [signed: Karl Diebitsch]

    SS-Hauptsturmführer"

  8. #77

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Thanks for the fine translation. Our viewers should well pay for such excellent service.





    As I wrote above, Georg Nikolaus Loerner was connected with the uniform affairs of the SS. See the books I cited on the VA SS and the WVHA.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-19-2012 at 04:20 AM.
    damit, basta.

  9. #78

    Default Re: BLACK-SS Tunic SS-Obersturmbannführer 7

    Apropos Suetterlin, I taught it to myself in the middle 1970s, when I had to read documents from the imperial German navy from the late 19th century through the 1914 era, at a time when typewriters were not yet legion, and Feinschreiber were also used in official correspondence.
    Knowledge of Suetterlin is very useful in this game.
    damit, basta.

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