Deschler and its secrets.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Thanks as ever for your fine post. I could not agree with you more that conventional historical research on the 20th century pattern is preferable to my taste. Others in their number want something different that suits their horizons. The latter aspect is part of my life away from this space, and I grapple with it as much as I can.
I had actually asked for a response from a badge collector with evidence of how Deschler worked, as well as the procurement piece. Among anyone familiar with how the SS really worked, to say nothing of procurement overall, it is no riddle that connections played a role. My question related to the "scull" shibbobleths as concerns variations in these badges, and if there is any documentary source to account for them.
No one answered me thus far as to my query. This thread has a life of its own, not the least because Ben always adds new material and different aspects of things that interest me.
In any case, no one is obliged to contribute here. I am grateful to those that do, surely, and am not stinting in my thanks, I think.

May I also note that I included finding aids in German from the German Federal Archives as a didactic point, which is generally lost on many as concerns real research by conventional means.

The 21st century is profoundly changing how we think and act, and I am certainly glad that I embarked on a career as a historian a long time ago under very different parameters.


The free form of things bothers me sometimes less, so long as sound wishes underlie the variety of posts and the panoptikum.

No one is a greater foe of quantitative measures of effectiveness than I, however.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

May I also observe that the enclosure of Mr. Derek contains a major clue of where to seek documentary evidence about these cap badges, namely in Pforzheim, known for its centuries of fine craftsmanship, and anyone who has remaining knowledge of such a Praegeanstalt, i.e. the shop that made the designs from a drawing into a die for production. The handicrafts occupy a place of great local pride in such places, and their are historical entities in such places, Gewerbemuseen, which contain knowledge on such themes.


But no one has deployed this knowledge here in this thread.....

[BenVK]

I must say that I don't altogether understand the complaints about response that I see more and more frequently on the forum. The web forum structure makes a concise and logical flow of information difficult in my opinion and it is often hard, if not impossible sometimes, to ascertain what is actually being asked for. Perhaps it is a result of the sadly increasing internet measurement of success by numerical results alone.
In the research area the internet has many shortcomings. Good old fashioned spade work is still infinitely more likely to find germane and pertinent information despite the web offering a quick and readily available overview.
d'Alquen

I don't think the complaints are without justification. Most answers are there to be found on the web without too much effort and I for one I'm growing tired of all the questions being asked, not just by the new collectors but also by the ones with 30 or 40 years experience. I'm all for good old fashioned spade work and think that I've proved myself in that respect. So why can't and why haven't the majority of older collectors done the same or at least shared what they know if they have put in the hard work? I honestly feel that most of the older generation have let us all down. Only people like youself and FB have decided to share what you know but you are most surely in the minority.
The web has it's shortcomings for sure but that's only because the groundwork was not put in place before. I look at where we are now compared to 10 years ago when I first started and the shear amount of work and information that is now available for all is quite incredible.
It's all too easy for collectors with 30 years of experience to say, well just go to the source material and learn for yourselves. The problem is that the source material just isn't there anymore to buy and in any case, you guys never offered it to us even when you had it and had it for years.
I'll be totaly brutal with you all. You're all going to die before long and all the information that you've kept locked away in an attempt to be the ones that we all look up to will be lost forever.
What's the point in that? it's just rather sad.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Mr. d'Alquen has been pretty generous with his work for us all, I think, and I believe I have done so, as well. My death is a certainty, to be sure, and my career which is quickly nearing its end has embodied quite a bit of sharing with others, in the main, in universities. This here is not a university. There are surely no grades, and no entry requirements for admission and such. I wish there were and I would be happy to give grades, of that you can be sure.
Research in archives does not so easily lend itself to this medium.

[BenVK]

Not relevant post, please ignore

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Attachment 462504Attachment 462505Attachment 462506Attachment 462507Attachment 462508Attachment 462509Attachment 462510Attachment 462511That is, find for us the primary sources governing these badges and how they were marked, when, and, above all.......why.....?

I asked this question of badge collectors. I am also not surprised that only the usual stalwarts answered here, as is usually the case.

[BenVK]

Mr. d'Alquen has been pretty generous with his work for us all, I think, and I believe I have done so, as well. My death is a certainty, to be sure, and my career which is quickly nearing its end has embodied quite a bit of sharing with others, in the main, in universities. This here is not an university.
Research in archives does not so easily lend itself to this medium.

Both of you have been more than generous for sure.
But that's just 2 persons from the generation of collectors that were around before I was even born. When you both inferr that we should look to the source material, don't you think that we would if we could 1. get hold of it and 2. read it?
"archives does not so easily lend itself to this medium" No it certainly does not but if you want to encourage learning, you have to get people involved. That by it's very nature means offering some of your knowledge in return for participation. Quid pro quo.

[d'alquen]

"I honestly feel that most of the older generation have let us all down."
You seem to have forgotten Mollo, Schneider, Beaver, Hugh Page Taylor, Schlicht, David Littlejohn, Hicks, and a host of others who provided reams of reference material.
"The problem is that the source material just isn't there anymore to buy and in any case, you guys never offered it to us even when you had it and had it for years."
The source material that all of the above and myself have relied on is, and has always been, readily available from archives. The extent of just one of these sources was illustrated earlier in the thread by FB. Personal collector holdings of original documentation are minimal compared to the raft of material available through government sources.
You'll forgive me if I take exception to your remarks but they strike me as rather counter productive.
d'Alquen

[Friedrich-Berthold]

There is a tendency among some or many to assign arbitrary traits to this regalia in order to make it appear to be something more than it is.
That is, categories of rarity are concocted for reasons of profit or for psychological ends that are at violence with the truth.
It is this phenomenon that I wish to explore and challenge with my training as a historian. Others peer into helmet decals with super microscopes and engage other means and techniques.
Mr. d'Alquen has done remarkable research over decades, which he has shared with us to the betterment of all. I think he is, in fact, along with Messr. Saris and some few others, a tiny cadre of persons.
Real research is difficult.
For myself, my posts represent what I know and can transmit via this medium, and I stand by what I have done.
Others can account for what they have done and what value it might have added in the sum of things.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Both of you have been more than generous for sure.
But that's just 2 persons from the generation of collectors that were around before I was even born. When you both inferr that we should look to the source material, don't you think that we would if we could 1. get hold of it and 2. read it?
"archives does not so easily lend itself to this medium" No it certainly does not but if you want to encourage learning, you have to get people involved. That by it's very nature means offering some of your knowledge in return for participation. Quid pro quo.

I cannot account for the others. I think they are likely put off by the human dynamics of it all. However, the getting a hold of sources is vastly easier than in my time. I recall making the pilgrimage across the ocean to meet Mollo in 1971, a major undertaking, and I bought some of his books from him. It was a muggy summer.
Also, the archives are more on line and accessible than ever before, surely, to a remarkable degree, as my earlier posts indicate.
I also included a guide to German archives, their terms, and such. It is something I am sure you can have the computer translate.
But no one has yet indicated to me when, how, where and why Gustav Deschler made his marks on his badges which he did or did not have the sole right to produce...?