KZ Dachau 1933

[Friedrich-Berthold]

thank you

[OKW]

Nicely put FB.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Nicely put FB.

Thanks. Danke vielmals.

[Dick]

These pics are just sad. Once again perspective is achieved in this hobby. Those poor prisoners and looking at these pics knowing what is going to happen to them. Sorry to get off topic but sometimes pics like these are pretty deep.

The early camps such as this at Dachau were bad, but were not the horific wholesale extermination camps that followed the decree contained in the final solution. In 1939, all the prisoners of Dachau were removed to other camps, and some released, to allow it to become a military training camp for the newly forming 3rd SS panzer division, Totenkopf. After the TK div. departed for war, a completly new administration, directive, and chain of comand for all camps, reopened Dachau in 1940, for which it then developed into one of the most well known of the infamous.

[Dick]

The photos may be interesting, but when one considers that this concentration camp in particular was the beginning of a process of the wholesale imposition of totalitarian rule in central Europe and elsewhere, then the images are pretty shocking, in fact.

Since Adrian Stevenson is not here to do so, let me also say that those who are interested in political arguments to render harmless the effect of national socialism or romanticize the SS have many, many other websites in the internet for their pleasure and enjoyment. They do not belong here.

These images themselves were also intended as a means to intimidate and silence opponents of the regime, since the establishment of the concentration camp was accompanied by a public relations campaign in the months of the so called Machtergreifung, that is, the months after the 30 of January 1933.

Himmler's role in the political police in Bavaria at the time these image were taken was a kind of experiment in the destruction of civil rights and the establishment of state terrorism that gained speed in the subsequent years. When one considers the heritage of the rule of law in Germany in the decades and centuries prior to the erection of this camp, and what its existence came to mean to the lives of thousands and presently millions, then that is shocking, too.

And, finally, I rather think that those who collect this regalia in the 21st century, were they subjected to these conditions for maybe a few weeks or more would also find the experience not only shocking but also quite harmful to their health and reinforce their affection for due process of law and civil rights that most people who post here take for granted.

Think about it.

I think the above post is making Bobs submission of great historical photo's into something it is not, and is not political in any way shape or form. Correct, there are plenty other sights and horific pictures elswhere, that's why the Bob Hritz sumbission is so important, it gives info not contained elswhwere.The above post complaining about Bobs info., is totally political, and totally misses the reality of facts contained in the photo album, as it is a time frame not well known or published. There is never any harm in truth, unless politics are injected!

[vady]

hi dick -

f-b is (obviously) more than adroit enough to speak to these issues. "clarifying" him would be a fool's paradise.

I do have some thoughts, tho. I've read f-b for a good while. and like others, I find that he balances enthusiasm for the pasttime with both a detective's curiosity about production, regulations, materials etc. and a historian's appreciation for the dire conditions giving rise to naziism. his knowledge is broad and deep.

I, for what it's worth, interpret his comments as basically saying, "collect and enjoy this cool stuff, just don't forget the system that produced it." I'd venture to guess people collecting roman coins or mayan pottery entertain the same dual feelings.

some forums have separate places where history per se can be argued (civilly, we hope) - versus just the memorabilia. in my view such needn't be a hard-n-fast rule here - unless of course things head south in the deportment dept. then the barkeep's admonition, "gentlemen, take it outside" applies....

anyway, bob's to be thanked once more for the excellent post and historic images; ditto f-b for the typically lucid contextual discussion.

[Dick]

hi dick -

f-b is (obviously) more than adroit enough to speak to these issues. "clarifying" him would be a fool's paradise.

I do have some thoughts, tho. I've read f-b for a good while. and like others, I find that he balances enthusiasm for the pasttime with both a detective's curiosity about production, regulations, materials etc. and a historian's appreciation for the dire conditions giving rise to naziism. his knowledge is broad and deep.

I, for what it's worth, interpret his comments as basically saying, "collect and enjoy this cool stuff, just don't forget the system that produced it." I'd venture to guess people collecting roman coins or mayan pottery entertain the same dual feelings.

some forums have separate places where history per se can be argued (civilly, we hope) - versus just the memorabilia. in my view such needn't be a hard-n-fast rule here - unless of course things head south in the deportment dept. then the barkeep's admonition, "gentlemen, take it outside" applies....

anyway, bob's to be thanked once more for the excellent post and historic images; ditto f-b for the typically lucid contextual discussion.

I fully understand and appreciate the above thoughts, so here is some more of mine. I have been collecting German militaria since 1952, most all of it coming in those days, directly from the US GI's that I got to know from my families friends, and my school mates fathers and or relatives. In later years I have traveled both to Germany, Ausria, Hungry, etc. in quest of my hobby, and historical interests, all in the name of facts. In my business duties as a defense contractor, have also been a guest of the IDF in Israel, and had have had and office there for many years, so I believe that I am fairly knowledgible as most others are.
This forum is a wonderful place to learn about military related artifacts, there are other places to learn about politcal policies and atrocities, I'd prefer they be kept seperate, like church and state. I, and I'm sure others, do not need to be school'd in how we should aproach and or think about our chosen interests. We are all aware of the dangers of thought and speech police, hence I don't think we need anyone on here being chastised for submitting documentatation that is clearly A political.
I have over 10,000 unpublished photo's of the TK units, from the start to their end. I'd hate to think that I would be chastised, or some how treated as a child, and told I should remember what government the photo's represent if I did decided to share them on here. I know that other members do not live in the land of the free, but Bob does. The old saying is true, a picture is worth a 1,000 words, and with what Bob Hritz placed on here certainly add's up to more volumes of fact than can be argued against showing, and certainly need no discusion other than what they were presented for, education of uniforms in use.
However, if someone came on here that want's info about uniforms shown in a photo album from the Boar war, then know doubt it would be justified to inject the history behind such an album, sinse it is not well known about that war and it's camps. ie The first modern concentration camps were set up by the British Army, and over 22,000 women and children were starved to death, all in an effort to get their families men to surrender. Evidently, not too many care what uniforms the British wore at those camps, and evidently not too many care about what happened at the camps either, or even that war. Point being, we don't need schooling on Bobs album, the history of arrocities is already covered more than any than I can think of, as well it should be, but it did not occur like we know it during the time of Bob's album.
Lets just enjoy the discoveries in the fields we endevour. We all know first hand that a lot of knowledege can be found in discovering factual happenings thru photo's, via studies of equipment, uniforms, insignia, weapons, and personel.
I appologise for any mis-spelled words, my spelling rot.

[vady]

interesting points, dick, and well taken. thanks a lot.

but on this point:

>We are all aware of the dangers of thought and speech police, hence I don't think we need anyone on here being chastised for submitting documentatation that is clearly A political<


I haven't detected "chastisement" or heard anyone call for speech codes. and I suspect such are very unlikely...

all the best, good hunting,

david

[BOB COLEMAN]

Personally, I believe FB's comments were an expanded historical perspective of the pictures and what would slowly evolve. As previously posted on this Forum, many are aware that I own the Command Flags from Dachau and Matthausen. Historically, I have found them to be very important. At the same time, I have never forgotten what they also represent.

[vady]

just so, bob. comments appreciated.

by the way I also need to thank benvk for posting the images. amazing stuff!

Personally, I believe FB's comments were an expanded historical perspective of the pictures and what would slowly evolve. As previously posted on this Forum, many are aware that I own the Command Flags from Dachau and Matthausen. Historically, I have found them to be very important. At the same time, I have never forgotten what they also represent.