Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 86

KZ Dachau 1933

Article about: Thanks for the above. I was on temporary duty in Europe for two weeks and unable to respond to the above. I think there has been some misunderstanding here, which readers can reconcile in ca

  1. #41

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    Thanks for the above. I was on temporary duty in Europe for two weeks and unable to respond to the above. I think there has been some misunderstanding here, which readers can reconcile in carefully re-reading all the posts here in this file. Might I make several points: a.) Ben VK started this thread; b.) my historical observation about Dachau was directed not at Bob Hirtz, but at others; b.1) I consider Bob Hritz a friend, and I surely hope he reciprocates the favor; I am not aware that I offended him---if I did so, I must humbly apologize; c.) without putting too fine a point on it, those who know me would be somewhat disinclined to believe that I advocate "speech codes" or the like. Unlike most others here, history is not my hobby, it is my profession (that is, I get paid to do it...) and one in which I have an international reputation on two continents over three decades. The German past is controversial and will remain that way, as is much of the contemporary history of Europe of which I have been both a scholar and a participant through my professional role in the last quarter century. Such controversy is normal and healthy.

    The internet is a major force for the revival of Nazi ideas, which flourish elsewhere on other sites. It is the stated policy of this website to abhor and reject such politics to which I am sure we all adhere on this site. Our purpose is the examination of bits of the past, of which photographs are an ever more powerful and important source. But they are also sources prone to misunderstanding and misinformation as time passes as knowledge becomes more diffuse as to their meaning (if any....) of such objects.

    Bob Coleman and Adrian Stevenson asked me to join this site because of my professional interests and contribution elsewhere. These other sites have forfeited the role of open inquiry because of witch hunting and also the incapacity of adults to exchange views about the past in a manner that shows respect to one another and to the subject itself.

    In this connection, the sources of the past say different things to different people and there is no way to prescribe a standard way to interpret the past. Hence, to ascribe to me some desire for indoctrination or the like is patently absurd. Before new members here render some judgment on my posts, they might cordially read more of them before making an assessment. Thank you. Happy collecting.
    damit, basta.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    P
    Many
     

  3. #42
    ?

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    a perfect coda, f-b; magisterial, in fact.

  4. #43

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    Quote by vady View Post
    a perfect coda, f-b; magisterial, in fact.
    Thanks and because you and I write for a living as well as have direct access to the realities of power in the here and now, then such is fairly plain. Let me be blunt: the Nazis themselves would never have tolerated the idea that one could somehow divorce their being, symbols, etc from politics, which they sought to redesign as a movement; that is political conflict made permanent in national life. The SS was a major force in this effort. It was no ordinary organization and Dachau no ordinary prison or work camp. I encourage you to read the writings of Carl Schmitt, a major legal theorist of Nazism, who defined politics very clearly in the same way I did so above as the SS would have done it and in which manner they saw Dachau as a political instrument.

    One of the nice things about the world since 1989 has been that Germans are once more writing their own history of the era 1933-1945 and with particularly excellent scholarship on the SS. I read all that I can on this for my own work and especially the biographies of SS figures offered by fine, young historians. The work edited by Erik Schulte on the SS and also on the Wewelsburg new from Schoenigh is superb in this regard.


    Happy reading and happy collecting.
    damit, basta.

  5. #44

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    The work of which I speak, with a nifty illustration on the cover. And there is also the biography of Himmler by Longerich, which I have posted elsewhere. I assume these might get translated into English at some point. The Jan Erik Schulte piece also has an excellent bibliographical essay on the history of SS history, too, which is worth the price of the book alone. But it also goes deeply into SS ideology as well as treating the popular question of the Wewelsburg and its personnel. The book was also supported by the state government of Lower Saxony.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    damit, basta.

  6. #45
    ?

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    I, and doubtless others, thank you for this addenda.

    btw - I'm reviewing c. gottlieb's new tome on the ss t'kopf ring. care to contribute? cheers.

  7. #46

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    Quote by vady View Post
    I, and doubtless others, thank you for this addenda.

    btw - I'm reviewing c. gottlieb's new tome on the ss t'kopf ring. care to contribute? cheers.
    Thank you. Has Craig Gottlieb written a book? Plainly, I shall leave this issue to others. There are some other nice books out on national socialism in Germany this season which I can cite later. I cannot bring myself to buy from websites. I have to go to book stores and look at things. It is an old and curious habit. Germans take book stores seriously, too, which is a great joy to me.

    Please tell us about Gottlieb's work when the time comes. I had thought there were several books on SS Ehrenringe?
    damit, basta.

  8. #47
    ?

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    The first ones that came there were Germans that bad mouthed the Govt. - the U.S.A did the same thing to 15,000 Americans that didn't like WW I... now they want to shut up radio & TV talk host conservitives.... Dachau was run by KAPOs

  9. #48
    ?

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    [QUOTE=Friedrich-Berthold;38275]Thank you.
    Has Craig Gottlieb written a book?


    yes f-b, and here's the link to same:

    The SS Totenkopf Ring by Craig Gottlieb - Schifferbooks.com


    Plainly, I shall leave this issue to others. There are some other nice books out on national socialism in Germany this season which I can cite later. I cannot bring myself to buy from websites.

    I only meant could you contribute a few thoughts to my review...?

    I have to go to book stores and look at things. It is an old and curious habit. Germans take book stores seriously, too, which is a great joy to me.

    a lovely habit, actually.

    Please tell us about Gottlieb's work when the time comes.

    ok - my poor ramblings about his book will be in an upcoming ish the Military Trader.

    I had thought there were several books on SS Ehrenringe?

    I know only of the don boyle effort from '97, it's now a collectible in its own right!

    can others advise if there are more, in english german or otherwise??

  10. #49

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    [QUOTE=vady;38284]
    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    Thank you.
    Has Craig Gottlieb written a book?


    yes f-b, and here's the link to same:

    The SS Totenkopf Ring by Craig Gottlieb - Schifferbooks.com


    Plainly, I shall leave this issue to others. There are some other nice books out on national socialism in Germany this season which I can cite later. I cannot bring myself to buy from websites.

    I only meant could you contribute a few thoughts to my review...?

    I have to go to book stores and look at things. It is an old and curious habit. Germans take book stores seriously, too, which is a great joy to me.

    a lovely habit, actually.

    Please tell us about Gottlieb's work when the time comes.

    ok - my poor ramblings about his book will be in an upcoming ish the Military Trader.

    I had thought there were several books on SS Ehrenringe?

    I know only of the don boyle effort from '97, it's now a collectible in its own right!

    can others advise if there are more, in english german or otherwise??
    Dear Friend Vady, if you want help with your review, I shall be glad to do so, but later in March when I done with a crushing schedule of travel and work. I had thought there was more than the Boyle book, but I can be in error. I thought the Ulrich of England guy had done one, too. I do not follow such things. Please send me a private note so we can establish proper contact to aid you in your work. I must confess that I do not buy all the Schiffer titles, which is my failing altogether. Did Gottlieb do any primary research in the necessary files? The Longerich book has a chapter on the cult ish and patronage aspects of the SS that is very interesting, in fact. There is a lot of literature out now on the use of art, gifts, symbols &c. as a means of Nazi governance and regime cohesion. It is of great merit.

    I shall leave the issue of contemporary American politics to others and to other locales. I cannot claim any expertise in domestic American politics other than having been a witness of same since about 1960. I was for Nixon, then, as I was in 1968. And, if one has to die as a public figure , then the way to do it best is as done by Vice President Nelson Rockefeller.
    damit, basta.

  11. #50
    mty
    ?

    Default Re: KZ Dachau 1933

    Hi!

    I am a new member on this forum and this topic caught my eye. As a graphic designer/art director, the "design" aspects of the SS have been of great interest to me for a long time. In addition to this, I also find the development of the SSTV very interesting and not thoroughly enough researched theme.

    According to what I have researched, the development of the guard units at KL Dachau seem to have been following:

    - The camp was officially set up on March 22nd 1933, although the location was scouted and outer fences erected ca. week earlier. Most probably the "founding father" of the idea of opening up a concentration camp came from Gauleiter and provisional M.d.I. Wagner who forwarded the actual preparation to the provisonal Polizeipräsident of Munich, Himmler. At this stage, the Hilfspolizei was not yet officially divided to Sicherheits-Hilfspolizei (SA & Stahlhelm Hipo units) and Politische Hilfspolizei (SS units) but since the inauguration of the camp was managed by Himmler, he maintained that the SS was in pivotal role straight from the beginning.

    - The first guard unit came either from the Munich Schupo or the Bavarian Landespolizei, both are mentioned and obviously mixed up by at least some of the historians. The first commander (of both the camp and the guard unit) was a police captain.

    - The very first physical appearance of the SS at Dachau took place right on March 23rd, when a detachment commanded by SS-Staf. Malsen-Ponickau (in his capacity of the overall commander of SS Hipo in Upper Bavaria) arrived and was stationed in the area. The guard duties were still being carried out by the regular police but apparently the SS took more and more charge of running the camp. At this stage, the Hilfspolizei men were most probably trained and accustomed to their upcoming task. According to Johannes Tuchel, also some SA Hipo-men were involved.

    - The camp was officially turned over to the SS following the appointment of Himmler to Politische Polizeikommandeur Bayern in April 1933. This practically removed Dachau from the authority of Munich Polizeipräsidium and it became a domain of the BayPoPo. Simultaneously the SS Hipo gradually took over the camp, culminating in the appointment of SS-Hstuf Hilmar Wäckerle as the camp commandant (againt conflicting data: some sources date his appointment on February, others on April).

    In fact KL Dachau itself was a state installation but all of its personnel were provided by the SS. The SS camp personnel were regarded temporary employees of the state, as members of the Hilfspolizei. This authorized them - hitherto representing a paramilitary organization of a political party without official police power - to guard the prisoners. When the Hilfspolizei was officially abolished, this did not result in withdrawal of SS guards from Dachau since they were already given a special status as a permanent unit of BayPoPo. The arrangement in Berlin was almost completely similar, men of the SS-Standarte 42 assigned to Columbia-Haus were simply redesignated "SS-Kommando Gestapa" and given a status of Kriminal-Angestellte and a state salary.

    The Wachtruppe was subjected straight to the SS-Gruppe Süd, thus passing the Abschnitt level (as a comparision, in Berlin, the SS staffing for Columbia-Haus and Prinz-Albrecht-Strasse Gestapo jail was managed by the SS-Abschnitt III). Eicke later reminisced that Sepp Dietrich as the commander of Gruppe Süd mostly regarded Wachtruppe Dachau as a dumping point of unwanted SS personnel.
    Apparently the first wave of manpower for the now-established distinct Wachtruppe came from SS-Standarte 34. Also Reiterstandarte 15 under Hermann Fegelein was assigned to outer perimeter guard duty for a time. Some sources mention that most of the early guards were unemployed SS men from Dachau.

    At some time during 1933 (before November in every case) the Wachtruppe was given an identity of its own as SS-Sturmbann Dachau. It was now regarded roughly similar to the Sonderkommandos set up by some Oberabschnitte (such as SS-3 at Sachsen, assigned to KL Sachsenburg). At this stage, the collar tabs with "D" insignia began to appear. There is a transition stage during the summer and perhaps early fall 1933 when SS men assigned to Dachau seem to wear blank collar tabs. In the earliest photos at least some of the men still wear the tabs of their parent units (34, R15 etc).

    In an earlier post in this same thread, there was a mention of Totenkopf collar tabs appearing in some pattern already in 1934 or even in 1933. I am by no means an expert in the SS insignia and development of uniforms, but it would sound more plausible if the TK collar tabs were introduced as part of the overall reformation of guard units into Totenkopf-Sturmbanne. I think that their distinct identity as Totenkopf units was invented (presumably by Eicke himself, according to Charles W. Sydnor) and the new tabs reflected this visually.

    On the other hand, the Totenkopf was already a well established part of the visual language - one can almost say "corporate identity" - of the SS and it is not out of question, if some individuals might have improvised unofficial collar tabs this way.

    A standard issue cufftitle of Gruppe Süd was worn with the "D" collar tab up to the official introduction of new TK tabs. I am not sure when the earth-brown service uniform was introduced (1934?). In the beginning, the early SS guards were issued with Landespolizei overcoats, as was the case in Prussia.

    Additions and corrections to the essay above are more than welcome .

    --

    Going a bit off-topic but I am very interested in the legal position of Wäckerle (and other KL commandants as well) since he was allowed to draw the first version of the camp rules system (Lagerordnung), including arbitrary death sentences by a court chaired by the camp commandant. The only explanation for this which I could imagine is that he acted in the name of Himmler and thus "creatively" transferred the powers of the state police to himself and his guard troops. I am not familiar with the exact content of the laws concerning the state of emergency, declared in February, but perhaps some paragraph of these laws gave a legal pretext for the transfer of judicial authority to a prison (in this case, KL) officer!

    - Mikko

Similar Threads

  1. Named and researched 1933 pattern SS dagger

    In SS Dienstdolch, 1933 & 1936
    11-06-2011, 07:48 PM
  2. Named and researched 1933 pattern SS dagger

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    10-24-2009, 11:11 AM
  3. Death at Dachau

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    02-09-2009, 11:53 PM
  4. SS Lager complex Dachau

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    08-12-2008, 02:23 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •