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Oberbayern Pic

Article about: I recently purchased this picture of an SS/TV Mann wearing an Oberbayern tunic lacking a Sturm number on the collar patch.

  1. #11

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Thank you d'alquen for the document and likely date of my picture...also for where he may have served as I have found very little about this...The only reference I have found in all of my books is from Angolia -the wearer of such insignia being assigned to concentration camps

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  3. #12

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Since you are a serious collector, I would urge you to move beyond this secondary source as the fount of knowledge. It is a pretty flawed piece of work in my opinion.

    Colleague d'Alquen could make a killing with an illustrated volume on the SSTV with all he has garnered, that is for sure, and it would place the existing works in the shade.

    I rely on Mollo's volume IV and have done so for decades....
    damit, basta.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Thanks FB...I heed your advice and do try and keep up with the latest works..I have the Mollo books and go to them first when wanting clarification...Vol 1V doesn't show the numberless tab which has been frustrating.... I would be one of the first in line should d'alquen publish an illustrated volume
    Cheers Murray

  5. #14

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    These secondary works all leave much to be desired, but such is in the nature of authorship.
    In the case of the Angolia book, though, there are many flaws.
    At the same time, the picking out of a flaw or two is far easier from the peanut gallery than the solitude and agonies of authorship. I met Mollo a long time ago and have high regard for him, even if based on the knowledge I now have through primary sources I see his work more critically.
    I also don't think very much of the Schiffer books, either, as they have no editorial process what so ever.
    The center of gravity is on colored pictures of a handful of US collectors, and I hardly think that such comprises the full range of the truth, either.
    Mr. d'Alquen has worked his way through a ton of SS files relevant to this question, and SS insignia is a very twisted and confused area that, most important, confused contemporaries.
    This aspect is no where to be found in Angolia what so ever, whereas Mollo depicts much more of reality, particularly in vol. VI on the Waffen SS.
    The internet and these websites, however, represent a very broken, scattered, and confusing undertaking. You can pose a question a maybe get a fair answer, but you cannot by this means figure out the linear development in the sense of chronology, cause & effect and judgment as is essential to this task.
    Instead, there is a tower of Babylon at work here and a loud recycling of little knowledge by many, most of whom cannot think critically.
    Es ist halt so.Click image for larger version. 

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    damit, basta.

  6. #15

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Name:  5_2297.jpg
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    damit, basta.

  7. #16

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Name:  iglauunterm.jpg
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Size:  42.7 KBThis is also an excellent book.
    damit, basta.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	276582As is this.
    damit, basta.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    Also, Wim Saris has done similar primary research to Mr. d'Alquen, and his work is useful, even if some of his illustrations go off the Richter scale as concerns real verus less than real objects.
    damit, basta.

  10. #19

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    To echo Friedrich-Berthold's comments about Andrew Mollo I was, and remain, an unapologetic fan of his series of books on the SS. There isn't much that he didn't find and describe some 40 years ago. All that really remains is dotting a few 'i's and crossing a few 't's here and there.
    The assignation of Oberbayern is oversimplified in Angolia. The excellent portrait shown at the start of the thread almost certainly shows the title after the 1937 re-organisation of the 3 regiments. Officially the band was worn by men and leaders on the staff of the Dachau concentration camp and the SS-TV regiment Oberbayern. The plain tab would suggest the man is from the regiment as opposed to camp staff. As stated earlier, the bayonet is correct as the dagger was never an official side-arm of the SS-TV, or the SS-VT for that matter.
    For those interested in this SS-TV insignia I would highly recommend an excellent picture posted by Friese today on the forum.

  11. #20

    Default Re: Oberbayern Pic

    The key to understanding SS regalia is the rapid and chaotic growth of the organization in what, in historical terms, was a very brief time.
    Mollo explains this process fairly well by the lights of the era and links this process to the uniform.
    The more recent books do not do so at all, and are a catalog of uniforms arrayed by totally random principles, with some chronology, but it is not sufficient.
    damit, basta.

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