Thanks for understanding.
Thanks for understanding.
Nice comments and disccussion about the hobby itself
I would like to share my experience with this tunic.
I know this tunic, i have contacted the dealer once. I was interested in it. We all see the difference between the ciff title and the boards.
Some solgiers used to wear their ciff title even if they were assigned to another devision as most ciff titles were some kind of "a noble member" award. At least one vet shared with me that no each solgier had ciff title. Anyway.
The tunic is original - the wool and the lining and the stamp prooves that.
But about the insignia - I do not believe someone might say at 100% sure that the insignia is time period applied.
I offered the dealer a good price, but he wanted more because "of the unique character of the tunic, the rare combination between the ciff title and the shoulder boards and the unique history that this tunic has and bla bla bla..."
And it was then i decieded to run away from this tunic - i do not trust dealers, who are trying to convince you you're bying the one and only tunic - that means ( at least for me ) that this is just a money hunter and all money hunters will add or change insignia to a tunic just to make it more eye catcher for collectors.
With the years of experience, you realize how important this is and begin to see which dealer is a just a dealr and which one respects the collectors' ideology about the "possessing untouched item"
In the end, its all up to you - will you be happy with a tunic like this? Will you pay so much but having the doubt that it might be modified post war?
This is why i passed on the tunic, despite the fact that all on it - insignia, the tunic itself, buttons, lining is original.
I hope i was helpfull.
If you are looking for untouched tunics - there are 2 dealers i trust compleatly because they would never sell an item if they see any post war modification
Hannahs reich site
and Bruce Herman's site.
There are more dealers of course, but these two are the most trustfull as per my experience with collecting SS items.
See their sites, there are some history of the items they sold, most tunics are a bit salty, but guaranteed untouched.
Nice to see that you have still retained an element of perspective in relation to collecting.
Although these things are great historical items with a value, everyone still has to eat, and I sometimes wonder why or how the "recession" has not impacted on the price of militaria.
I guess the fault lies with myself as I still do not quibble at the price of a badge but will still moan about the increase in the cost of a packet breakfast cereal.
Such is life.............
I just happened to be reviewing some of my older posts and noticed your comment. I do not recall, or have any record of you ever contacting me about this tunic so I'm quite offended that you'd suggest I'm a "money hunter" or that I'd ever consider changing or adding insignia just to make a buck. If you did indeed contact me with a "good price" as you suggested, please post your offer price here in this thread for everyone to review. I'd like to get the forum's opinion about whether or not they agree that your offer price was fair, or whether they think I was right to turn it down (again, if indeed you really did contact me).
For the record, I'm a collector to the core and only in rare circumstances would I ever consider replacing parts or insignia -- and would NEVER do so without full disclosure to a potential buyer. Here's one such example where I clearly state in the items' description that the grip eagle was replaced...
Boker SS Dagger
Also, if further proof is needed regarding the condition of this tunic before I acquired it, you only need to read through this thread, which I started on another forum prior to purchasing it...
Need opinions on this SS Tunic... - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
...Make sure you sort the thread properly (from oldest to newest post) so you can see the photos I originally posted, which were provided by the original owner. There are also references in this thread to my attempts to acquire additional photos from the owner.
In the end, even if you did contact me and I turned down your offer because I believe the tunic is worth more, this is my decision and mine alone. This should not automatically paint me as a bad person or a shady dealer as you've suggested. I'll give you the credit for including the words "( at least for me )" in your comment, but that doesn't help soften your words. Please be a little more careful when choosing your words so you don't cause harm to the reputation of another reputable forum member.
Let us keep our comments in moderation. I have never been a believer in the theory of the "untouched tunic." These items were intended to be part of the uniform of the individual. As his rank or trade might change, modifications were done to the uniform. It is a bit silly to think that when an individual was promoted or transfered, he discarded his old uniform for a brand new one. Period photographs also prove that non "textbook" insignia and placement of same did exist in the period. Let us all be careful not to raise this thread to another level which will cause editing and other possible negativities.
LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.
"All of the insignia, tabs and shoulder boards are original to this tunic, with no signs of post-war application or repair. Some collectors will argue that all SS tunics found today will have replacement insignia due to the fact that most SS tunics were stripped of their insignia after the war. Iím of the opinion that there are plenty of unaltered uniforms (SS tunics and otherwise) still out there ready to be uncovered, and believe this is one such tunic." - description from sellers website
I think you maybe missing the point in both threads. The reasoning for many (actually most) considering this tunic to have been restored is Not because the majority of ss tunics found today have restored insignia, but because there are many signs which point to this tunic being restored. So many that, once you add them all up, it is the only logical hypothesis one should come up with.
Here are a few examples: the cuff-title and shoulder-boards do Not go together. The collar tabs are extremely crisp, and the thread used to attach them to the tunic is very glossy, dare I say, new-like. The cuff-title was applied lower than what is usually found, and goes against period regulations. It is also of my opinion that all of the insignias wear doesn't correlate to one another.
Another fact worth notation here is that after the war, if this was really given to a little girl there is no way she would've been allowed to walk around wearing it with the insignia still in place. Not only would the process of denazification be a reason for the insignias removal, but I can't imagine any parent or guardian allowing her to do so considering the situation at hand. It just doesn't make logical sense, such a "jacket" would've caused many problems for her.
I will admit, however, all of these can be explained away, such as the cuff-title could've been placed there prior to a transfer out of regulation, and he didn't take it off as it represented a honor bestowed upon him, but when you put the whole picture together, in my opinion, it is quite clear that at minimum some of the insignia was added post war, no matter how well-done it may look or even if there isn't signs of prior insignia. When you find yourself having to say multiple times in your description of the item, "some collectors may say..." You may want to pause and consider their points.
The truth is, finding prior evidence is next to impossible in some cases and one must use other ways to determine when the insignia was applied. This tunic just has too many problems going on for it to be a completely period made item, in my opinion.
In regards to Jorks comment, could it be possible he was referring to a different seller? I, personally, feel you seem to be a honest guy, but must admit, also, your websites description is misleading, and in the thread on WAF it appears you're unwilling to except the fact it's a restored tunic, and instead continuously repeat your questions in hopes the answer will change.
Question, if you admittedly know nothing about SS tunics, why put a description on your website that is of only your opinion and goes against the opinion of well-educated collectors in the SS uniform field? To me that, too, makes no sense.
Again, I am not calling your integrity into question here, as I think you are probably a stand-up guy, I am just confused on how you've arrived at your conclusion. It seems it is based only on your opinion, which you've admitted lacks knowledge in this field, and goes against the ones who have studied these things for a very long time.
I do agree with you, though, that you can charge whatever you wish seeing you're the current owner.
Nice reading and informative that's about all I want to add gentlemen. I won't even go into my SS tunic history or experience. timothy
if you think to find a untouched tunic... or you have photos evidence or you are talking about nothing. Some tunics could be more compelling other less, a lot as this are clearly touched.
But for me is not a problem. I live in planet Earth and i know the 99% of SS tunics are rebadged.
In my collection i've 3 tunics i suspect to be untouched but i can't be sure and moreover... i don't care.
Maybe the tunic i love more is one der spiess restored by me.
Something I have always struggled with - untouched, text-book. My German Father and his ex-service friends finally showed me their memoribilia/belongings many years ago and I was astounded by the inconsistencies. When I would ask or point out what should have been they would just laugh, chuckle or shake their heads. Of all my Father's friends, the SS would look at me with disdain and say " we were there to fight, not dress up".