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Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

Article about: A wonderful, original grouping of Otto Skorzeny material was sold today at auction by Mohawk Arms. I first saw this grouping, which was sold by his daughter, in 1970 at a Ohio Valley Militar

  1. #41

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Quote by greg koepp View Post
    ya you can close it, it's Bob's posting and I would think he'd back ya on that too.

    greg

    Greg-
    I asked Ade to reopen the thread. Although, there is likely nothing new to discuss with regards to the material itself, this thread did evolve in to an interesting discussion of perception and understanding of how collecting and the study and critique of items has changed from the early days to the present. Therefore, Ade has reopened the thread. The difference the way this thread has gone in contrast to comparable threads on other venues is the manner in which all of us have discussed the items and also collector evolution.
    Ben,
    I believe your comments certainly opened up an interesting area that can still be explored either here or in a new thread. What I believe we all want in the end is a search for fact and the truth. The majority of critical testimony and evidence presented so far by the critics would never be allowed in a court of law as it is based on heresay and unsubstantiated or incorrect facts. The need to win an arguement must be sustained by the search for fact and truth.

    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

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  3. #42

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Quote by BenVK View Post
    Well, as a last post then, all I can say is that if one of the visors was this one, it's a bloody shame we can't see photos of it. That's one seriously impressive hat.
    Ben-
    Look at the size of Otto's head! Now, picture that cap flattened out.
    Maybe the new owner will someday wish to share pictures of the hat at this site. He could at least be assured of a fair assesment without previous bias.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  4. #43
    ?

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    I must admitt that the one thing that caught my eye in all the discussions was the reference to the large size of the hats. Just conjecture again but the really big or small sizes usually tend to genuine IMO. But, who knows eh?

  5. #44

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Hi Guys, thank you all for continuing this thread in a gentlemanly fashion. I was just concerned without any solid info to go on, this thread might take a nose dive.

    We have spent some time discussing the cap. Could we turn our attention to the tunic for a second? What has always struck me when observing photos or newsreel footage of Skorzeny is that on at least a couple of his tunics, I have noticed that he seemed to wear his SS sleeve eagle somewhat high on the sleeve. I don't have any pics to show this, but take on look at any you might have? The eagle placement on the tunic which sold was much lower. This is just an observation and I not not saying it was "wrong".

    Cheers, Ade.

  6. #45
    ?

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    Ben,
    I believe your comments certainly opened up an interesting area that can still be explored either here or in a new thread.

    I'm so glad you feel that way Bob. I re-read my post today and thought it might be missunderstood as being critical of the older generation of collectors, which was not what I entended.

    Maybe if I should tlell you a little about myself, it will go someway to explaining where I'm coming from and prehaps where other younger collectors are coming from also.

    My only connection with WW2 was a great uncle who fought in Burma. I didn't know this until I was old enough to buy him a beer at a wedding. He was taken prisoner by the Japs but he didn't say much about that except that his face and eyes told the pain quite obviously. I didn't take much notice at the time, I was too interested in the leggy brunnete at the party being 17 at the time.

    I'm 37 now. When I was a kid, I lived near an RAF base in Wales. The Lancaster and Spitfires/Hurricanes of the Memorial Flight used to fly over my house quite regularly to get serviced there. I built all the Airfix models of WWII aircraft and on open days on the base, I could show up the RAF guys stationed there with my knowledge when I was 12.

    But you know what, the trigger that got me into collecting was quite a mundane one. I had a job that paid well but didn't stimulate my mind. I thought one day that I have to find a new challenge otherwise I'll go mad. So, I thought that I'd rekindle my interest in WWII. I looked around and medals don't interest me really, nore do tunics etc so I chose hats and the Germans had the best looking hats. It was as simple as that. I knew enough to know that you have to specialize in one area to stand any chance of not being taken to the cleaners by all the fakes so that's what I did.

    After a while of collecting caps, I got into the repair and restoration work because I couldn't find anyone else to do it. It such a lost art and again, working with my hands is something else I'd lost sitting in front of a PC everyday.
    To be honest, that's the key IMO.
    Computers and the internet have been a blessing and a curse in equal measures. I would have never got into this hobby without it but it means that I don't have to interact with anyone face to face which leads to an internet personna that, on WA especially, means that you sometimes say things that you would normaly not say in person. I've learn't recently that that place can bring out the worst in your personality simply because you wan't to make a point to try and educate others but it's very frustrating because it seems they are just waiting in the wings to try and shoot you down. Fine if someone you've known questions you in an educated mannor but not fine if some unkown troublemaker kicks in for instance with an inane question just to stir up trouble and you respond in kind with some choice swearwords. I've been guilty of taking the bait quite a lot recently and got a many a warning because of it on WA. I don't know why it makes me so angry, maybe it's because they have a lot of knowledge available at their fingertips but yet they choose to the same old question, "real or not, value?"
    I know that I referred to younger collectors in a previous post as being more bullish and straightforward but this kind of approach, IMO, is unacceptable. Their is such a wealth of information here and on other forums that its just seems vulgar and lazy to post items and ask for opinions without any making any kind of attempt to find out for oneself whether the item is worthy of discussion or not.
    I must have read the forums for a good 6 months or so before I even dared to ask a question. As it turned out , I think Friedrich answered one of my very first my posts on GD, it was about why officer caps had velvet bands and that was it for me, hooked for life!

  7. #46

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Ben-
    Very well presented. I believe your thoughts echo true among all of us here. We should all be able to learn from each other. I would never by a medal or badge these days without having a friend who knows all of the new fakes checks it out. It seems as though some people have no life outside of collecting. It is better to find what is wrong then what is correct. So much in collecting these days is verbal lore. It is quite important to have the ability to sort out the truth from the imagined.When I collected Japanese swords, it took over five years of going to sword shows for me to buy something from a table holder. It is far better to listen and learn than misspeak and error.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  8. #47

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Dear Ben, thank you for your nice essay. As I wrote before, you are a gentleman and a credit to us all, whom we celebrate here.

    When I was in university in West Germany a very long time ago, I had to take a so called pro-seminar, the class one once needed in order to take a seminar, which was a big writing drill and the capstone course as it were. And in this class one learned how to work with historical sources in their variety, i.e. the kinds of documents created in various epochs of European history, as in the middle ages or the early modern period. And one also learned about material culture as remnants of former states, i.e. medals and coins. Militaria also counted as an historical source, too, which is the first time in my young adult life that anyone had taken the acquisition and study of this material seriously. In a pro seminar, the "Auseinandersetzung" with the source was crucial. That is, one asked the who, how, where, when and why had a given thing come into existence and what did it mean within the whole of history. How had its meaning changed, too, as one's understanding of the past changes?

    This process as well as life in Germany, where one quickly is exposed to the legacy of romanticism as well as a certain weariness about the world highlights that the search for knowledge is also flawed and subjective. That is, our search in the past is also about our own position relative to it. Once more my Nazi family with whom I lived assigned no value to these things and would never have remotely thought of asking the questions we do about things that to them were an irritating reminder of difficult times. Or, they thought utterly different about the neighborhood of Otto Rollerstrasse near the Alex, where Lubstein had its seat. To them it was still alive, but filled with different people and things. We do not know them and would not recognize them.


    These caps are just such a source, if one sees them correctly, and that is why I wrote above that the answer to the questions lies outside of the thing in itself, that is, beyond the confines of 57 cm of wool, rayon, paste board and leather, peak, crown, band, badge etc.

    We are asking the same things of these caps as happened in my pro seminar, of course, and that is why our little merry band is a pleasing thing. Sadly, there are others who have no interest in any learning and no real respect for the past or its evidence. They are their own punishment, it seems to me; but their marauding does drive away others. That they fail to respect other people in this search for knowledge, they in turn harm all of us, because they silence many, many voices and prevent many interesting things from coming to light.

    Many thanks, dear Ben, for your essay. We wish you a happy holiday season. If you ever venture closer to the Friedrich Berhtold house of horrors, I shall show you some things in my Schreckenskabinett.
    damit, basta.

  9. #48
    greg koepp
    ?

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Man you guys are so polite!!

    I want to join the club too, OK here's my shot at it: I really like you guys.... I have more if needed!!!

    But you get the idea, LOLOLOL......

    greg

  10. #49

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    There is no sin in good manners, even in the 21st century and even with the mechanism of the internet. Maybe by setting an example of good behavior, one can encourage others to do the same?

    If you deepen yourself in the world of German soldiers to any degree, you will encounter the above idea, actually.

    Many collectors admire German soldiers and their customs and heritage, yet, in their own personal behavior apropos their collections and their treatment of the material and other collectors (unseen), they would not last one day in the ranks of such an organization.

    One does well to read the how to books on German soldiering in their number. They make for an interesting cultural experience and are an adjunct to caps, badges, ribbons, edged weapons and the like.

    Happy Tuche und Stoffe.
    damit, basta.

  11. #50
    ?

    Default Re: Otto Skorzeny Grouping Sold At Auction

    Talking about good manners, I offered my seat on the tube today to an elderely lady and she just snorted that she wasn't disabled or anything! I really wonder why I bother sometimes...

    Anyway, just wanted to say thanks again for the kind words and I really appreciate the invitation to visit the Berhtold house of horrors!

    Greg, yes we are polite on this forum aren't we, makes a nice change doesn't it! I'm still in a state of shock.

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