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Schuma Cloth insignia , Uniforms, Schuma Items

Article about: UKRAINIAN - SCHUMA SD Tunic - 7 Buy the Book as a reference! "Deutsche Polizei-Uniformen" - by Dieter Deuster - IF you have a general interest in the POLIZEI branches (& especi

  1. #41

    Default re: Schuma Cloth insignia , Uniforms, Schuma Items

    And a couple of the helmet found in the positions of Estonian Grz Schtz Regiment- concripts troops, the regiment was assembled from ex police units and the soldiers who was sent back to Estonia from Finnish army in the mid of 1944, after the pact between the Soviet Union and Finnland about the end of the war.

    A little bit about the history of the soldiers who returned from Finnish army.
    Most of that peoples was run away from mobilisation to the Red and German army in 1940-41 year, but was mobilisated to the Finnish army, only one bataillon of Estonians in Finnish army was sent to the front line. By the ex Estonian admiral Pitka, they was mobilisated again to the German forces and very bad equipped, with Hotchkiss and Degtyarov MG's, MAS-36, Hembrug 1917, Mosin guns etc, and totally worn/damaged uniforms. Most of them was run to the home in the first possibility, due of absolutely pacifistic behaviour, but laterly again was mobilised by the Soviet troops to fight in the Estonian islands and the Kurland pocket, and again , they run to the forests from the war


    my Skype: warrelics

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  3. #42

    Default Super Schuma Helmets & Dimas' "TN" Schuma Fliegerbluse

    Thanks Dimas!

    Simply Superb Schuma Helmets! CONGRATS ! ! !
    Your SCHUMA Helmets (converted Dutch) are simply amazing - and you found them a long, long distance from the Netherlands! (Another neat example of the 'spoils / loot of war' being reused by the opposing side.) I don't think that I've ever seen ANY Schuma Helmets, except yours, Dimas. Great finds! They need to be featured in "Police, Vol. 3" which will have a dedicated chapter on the Schuma (much like Chapter 19 on the TeNo • TN in "Vol. 2.") Collectors need a lot more to see & there is a great deal of 'missing information' to learn about the Schuma! Your Finnish adapted Schuma helmets really show the reality of warfare. More super historical finds.

    Regarding Post #35 of Foto of the 2 SCHUMA men:

    From Dimas "...I owned some time ago the similar strirred tunic, but with the artly insignia remains on the sleeve and clearly recognized as Schuma, the tunic was exact the Luftwaffe, but interesting that it was tagged inside for TeNo..." I 'believe' that I may have an explanation for this finding, Dimas.

    There is an interesting TeNo • TN - LUFT 'connection' - I've learned that the Luftwaffe 'drafted' a cadre of TeNo men for service, in 1940 & later (& possibly as early as 1939.) The TeNo im Luft were responsible for providing electrical power for air strips, search lights & Flak lights, power for Flak batteries & Luft hospitals, general technical services & related Tech. functions.

    • There was a special TN Einsatzabteilung-W (Westen) & a TN Einsatzabteilung-Frankreich (with some unit overlapping) for LUFT use in France, & it remained in service from 1940-1944.
    • After Barbarossa, there was a TN-Einsatzabteilung-L-Ost (Luft Ostland) which was spread all over Russia & into the Caucasus. So, it would not be 'unreasonable' that the LUFT Fliegerbluses (Fliegerblusen?) destined to be worn by the TeNo men, im LUFT, would have been marked with a "TN."

    Taking this one step further - there was only limited Clothing for ALL of the various Wehrmacht elements im Osten. So, finding SCHUMA insignia on a LUFT Fleigerbluse (marked with the "TN" for the TeNo) - is a reasonable step in 'supply & demand' IMO. ..

    Attached -
    1) is a foto of a TN im LUFT unit, in France in 1940 - ALL wearing the Fliegerbluse.
    2) is a foto from Sept., 1943 in Vertirbo, Italy, of the grave of a TN Mann from TN-Einsatzabteilung-L-Ost - designated as Bereich SUD, as only part of L-Ost was transferred there.

    Not 'strictly' Schuma - but I 'believe' that it explains the Fliegerbluse which Dimas found, that had "TN" • TeNo on the internal marking - But with SCHUMA insignia / patch. ... Txs, Dave/dblmed
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  4. #43

    Default Schuma as Luftschutzpolizei

    Also - Regarding Post #35 of Foto of the 2 SCHUMA men:

    As ADE commented on the Luftwaffe Fliegerbluses in wear, some other knowledgeable Collectors, have also weighed in.

    "...I would say they are both wearing a Luft. Fliegerblouse with LSP [Luftschutzpolizei] boards as they appear to be sew in style. The sleeve eagle was removed and the Schuma insignia and armband added. It's a very nice photo. Keith / hmsbrinmaric
    - - - & - - -
    It seems to be Luftschutzpolizei men, due to Fliegerblouses & special [Very Narrow] LSW / SHD shoulder boards... Great photo - thnx for sharing!!! Jiri Libal sr. / lbsr...."

    The 2 pictured SCHUMA men would have been performing a Police functional role - as Luftschutzpolizei - another one of the many varied assignments of the Schuma. ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

  5. #44

    Default Geoff's Unusual Schuma Shoulder Boards

    As noted in Post # 37 (& reposted here for Discussion & Review) - Geoff's very unusual 'Atypical' - but still very SCHUMA - Shoulder Boards, IMO, are quite fascinating.

    For collectors of Schuma items, Geoff's additional Important & Confirmatory information & the Provenance, is the KEY, IMO, in that:

    (1) The Shoulder Boards were brought back by his Grandfather during WWII, & have remained in the same family since that time - & -

    (2) His unit was one of those which fought to the Elbe & were then forced (by Command) to stop there (thus, no point in risking any additional lives for territory which was previously ceded to the Russians.)

    Has anyone else found other examples of this unusual SCHUMA Shoulder Board Type / Configuration?
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  6. #45

    Default re: Schuma Cloth insignia , Uniforms, Schuma Items

    Dave, Many thanks for very interesting and informative post!

    my Skype: warrelics

  7. #46
    pjm is offline

    Default re: Schuma Cloth insignia , Uniforms, Schuma Items

    Just a note on the undersides of the various boards.

    The variation of undercloth and tab lining does not necessarily imply different makers. Even button hole stitching is only indicative of item being made by a different sewing machine, not necessarily a different maker.

    I once had two pairs of Luftwaffe paratrooper pants taken "off the shelf" by an American GI from a factory or depot near Weisbaden. Both had original paper tags and markings and were from the same manufacturer. However, both showed minor manufacturer variations.

    Factories, especially later in the war, did not always have the same machinery throughout due to many reasons like replacements, expansion or consolidation with other factories. Variations within one factory often occured. Uniform and insignia patterns reflecting changes in regulations or manufacturing procedures could also be implimented in one section of a factory but not another.

    When the Czech Statni Film costume department was plundered there were quantities of insignia in original factory tied bundles. These included Eastern Volunteer should straps with pale blue and red piping. At the time, (late 1980's- early 90's) I bought around 50+ pairs of each color. I still have a few left. These exhibited uniform top cloth in dark green but a spectrum of differently stitched (ie by different machines) button holes, backing cloth and tab linings.

    Photos show some insignia from the studio source.
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  8. #47

    Default re: Schuma Cloth insignia , Uniforms, Schuma Items

    Thanks for the wise comments as concern variations in original material. The seeker in the present wrongly imposes a uniformity and standardization that never existed in the past. The power of this wish for standardization and certainty must be a reflection of the Zeitgeist, for anyone who actually is familiar with the period and the conditions---as described nicely by my colleague in the Midwest above--will recognize a deeper truth.

    I enclose my recent acquisition, which, if one reads between the lines, makes obvious the range of variations which are natural in this material. I own other tailoring books, and some here would be surprised at how cerebral were the handicrafts in said age.
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    damit, basta.

  9. #48

    Default The "Mysteries" of Schuma Cloth Items

    pjm & Friedrich-Berthold - Thank you very much for your intuitive & very knowledgeable Postings, regarding the differences in construction of cloth Insignias - especially regarding the lack of uniformity (even within the same manufacturer) & 'expected' deviations, and the lack of standardization.

    As Cloth Collectors, we are always looking for identifiers of 'similarity' / 'standardization' - much like those of some of the Badge & Medal Makers - and we find that they most often, do not exist. (There were no Dies & Moulds for use with manufacturing items from cloth!) Thus each individual sewing machine unit produced a slightly different 'pattern' - leaving us with a lot of variations. Hopefully, we may get lucky and be able to identify some 'BeVo' or BeVo-Like pieces (or maker marked items), ...... but the Majority of the Makers of Cloth Items, will remain unknown & another mystery. ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

  10. #49

    Default Schuma Related Polizei / SS Document - 1943 - #1

    Schuma Related Polizei / SS Document - 1943 - #1

    I've been able to acquire a Schuma Related Polizei / SS Document - from 1943. The following is the Dealer's description:

    ".... Document of Fritz Träger, SS-Sturmbannführer Waffen-SS / Major Rural Police / Ukrainian Volunteers Unit - Schutzmannschafts Bataillon 143-146.

    Large promotion document (4 pages) of the 3rd Reich Interior Ministry, 22.1.43. Signed (original signature - ? "Hopefully" :?: ) by the Reichsführer of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, at his field headquarters (Feldkommandostelle des Reichsführer SS). Träger is promoted from Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei to Major der Schutzpolizei because he was promoted in the Waffen-SS on 21.12.42 to SS-Sturmbannführer.

    ••• Born 1899. Träger served in WW1 as gunner with the artillery 1917-18.

    ••• 1924 he started working at the Schutzpolizei, auxiliary police.

    ••• In 1942 Träger was “Vorbereitungsoffizier bei den Ukrainischen Schutzmannschafts Bataillon 143-146“, „Planning Officer“ with the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police, notorious for the actions against Jews and other civilians, responsible for many mass executions in the Ukraine and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. His units were for example active in Russia (Kursk, Orel and Charkow).

    ••• According to Waffen-SS personnel lists he was on 1.10.44 still active at the Waffen-SS as Sturmbannführer....."
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  11. #50

    Default SCHUMA Related Polizei / SS Document - 1943 - #2

    SCHUMA Related Polizei / SS Document - 1943 - #2

    Document of Fritz Träger, SS-Sturmbannführer Waffen-SS / Major Rural Police /
    Ukrainian Volunteers Unit - Schutzmannschafts Bataillon 143-146.
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