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schwarzer Dienstrock plus Muetze, Motorstandarte 2, Fulda Werra

Article about: This Montur came from a world renowned collector and friend. It has many noteworthy aspects to it, not the least that it is an Allgemeine SS Kraftfahr or Motor tunic of early make and high q

  1. #21

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    I can't help it: the form of eagle was not used before 1939.
    So, I cannot understand why the patch actually is on this tunic,
    which apparently is from the mid-thirties.
    Who has done it, I don't know. As you mention the position
    is neither correct.
    Thanks for your interest.
    damit, basta.

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  3. #22

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    I can't help it: the form of eagle was not used before 1939.
    So, I cannot understand why the patch actually is on this tunic,
    which apparently is from the mid-thirties.
    Who has done it, I don't know. As you mention the position is neither correct.

    Maybe d'Alquen knows if this patch actually was worn in later years. I cannot
    find any document or regulation mentioning it.
    A driver's patch was not included with the many Dienststellenabzeichen
    (Fachabzeichen) as introduced for the W-SS. Anyway the uniform-plate
    from September 1940 doesn't show it.
    If you look in vol. IV of Mollo, apparently this badge was used in the SSTV for persons seconded from the NSKK. See p. 40.

    Mollo cites: SS Befehl Nr 35/245/39, 13 XII 39.

    Angolia copies Mollo and illustrates this badge and one with alu and black piping, as well.

    May I ask one of the operators here to set straight the image I have enclosed.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 01-10-2015 at 03:07 AM.
    damit, basta.

  4. #23

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ID:	787581Name:  b9e227bc4a.png
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Size:  79.7 KBMaybe this person was involved in the reinforcement of the SSTV once mobilization took place, which is a long shot, but said use of Allgemeine SS to back fill the rear area of the SSTV is very well documented especially in the most recent work of a scholarly nature on the Allgem SS and the Waffen SS.

    In any case, the uniform itself is quite real. I have not one scintilla of doubt on that score, nor do I doubt those who owned it before me.

    PS the works I enclose here have and or has a very good essay on the changes in the SS organization ca. 1939-1940, especially with a view to the SSTV and even the Allgem. SS.
    damit, basta.

  5. #24

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    Just to inform:
    Due to the fact that lots of orders were misunderstood the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM
    published June 23, 1934 how members from a Motorstandarte had to act. Upon the
    right collar the M indication was to be worn (along with the number for the SS-Abschnitt
    in German number, so 1, 2, 3 etc.).
    and the embroidered Motorabzeichen upon the left arm, about 2.0 cm above the cuffband.
    So the diamond, which is now upon right should be above the cuffband anyway. But it
    should have been the proper early form, as worn by the Motor-SA and NSKK. In the
    Mitteilungsblatt never the new version was mentioned for the SS. Have no time to check
    if it is noted in a price change in the price-lists.

    Have to check if I have the Mollo mentioned order, but anyway this order is from
    December 1939. I do not have the original order, but neither Mollo mentions what side the
    diamond had to be worn. BUT.... I have the November 27, 1939 order where the diamond
    with SA symbol is being introduced for those coming from the SA as volunteers to the SS-TV
    (Der Reichsführer-SS Tgb. Nr. 35//245/39 Rf./Tt which was upon agreement with Lutze, the SA
    Stabschef).
    This diamond had to be worn indeed upon the righ lower arm. And so it will have been in
    line for the NSKK. The diamonds for both SA and NSKK were so introduced in late 1939.
    It still does not explain why it is positioned upon a M2 tunic from the mid-thirties!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #25

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Just to inform:
    Due to the fact that lots of orders were misunderstood the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM
    published June 23, 1934 how members from a Motorstandarte had to act. Upon the
    right collar the M indication was to be worn (along with the number for the SS-Abschnitt
    in German number, so 1, 2, 3 etc.).
    and the embroidered Motorabzeichen upon the left arm, about 2.0 cm above the cuffband.
    So the diamond, which is now upon right should be above the cuffband anyway. But it
    should have been the proper early form, as worn by the Motor-SA and NSKK. In the
    Mitteilungsblatt never the new version was mentioned for the SS. Have no time to check
    if it is noted in a price change in the price-lists.

    Have to check if I have the Mollo mentioned order, but anyway this order is from
    December 1939. Still it is in the wrong position!
    Thanks. I am aware of the 1934 items you describe, as well the badge that should be present, but is not....maybe the proper wheel badge was lifted off the thing by an insignia collector. I did not look closely to see
    if there are signs of a badge having been in the normal position above the sleeve.

    My eye was drawn to this odd badge in the wrong place.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 01-10-2015 at 04:03 AM.
    damit, basta.

  7. #26

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Just to inform:

    It still does not explain why it is positioned upon a M2 tunic from the mid-thirties!
    I was hoping you had an answer. Maybe someone else does.

    Thank you for your interest.
    damit, basta.

  8. #27

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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	787586This item was also apparently at variance with at least what stands in the secondary works, until Mr. Derek shared some of his regulations with us.

    That is, when I first saw this ensemble, I could not readily explain the presence of the equestrian badge on the SS Hauptamt Montur.

    - - ------- - -

    These badges, however, are in the right place.
    damit, basta.

  9. #28

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    damit, basta.

  10. #29

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    The insignia of the SS-Motorized units is a complex issue, not least due to the large re-organization that took place in 1936; I am presently researching it. The lack of the "Rad" diamond on the tunic pictured can be explained by the fact that in August 1935 Himmler ordered that the specialized diamonds, (equestrian, motor, pioneer and signals), be removed as the unit classification was indicated quite clearly on the collar patch. The exception was for leaders and men on the staff of a Sturmbann who could retain the 'sondereinheiten' badge i.e the spoked wheel on their left forearm.
    I have a raft of correspondence still to go through regarding the cuff titles and will add what I can relating to this tunic.
    d'Alquen

  11. #30

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    Thanks for the kind aid.
    damit, basta.

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