Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 56

Several Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler cuff titles

Article about: Hello everyone, I'm new on this forum and I think i will learn a lot of new things ... First i'm trying to trace back the history of the body gard unit, Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler BEFORE

  1. #21
    Jux
    Jux is offline
    ?

    Default

    sorry for my english

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    P
    Many
     

  3. #22

    Default

    Quote by Jux View Post
    Okay so the "Adolf Hitler" Gothic cuff title was the first cuff title ever worn by the armed body guards of Hitler. Moreover you told me that this cuff title was worn after the order of the 5 May 1934. I can't read German but is this document the order to wear this cuff title signed by Himmler and applied on the 11 May 1934 ?
    No, actually, I did not say that: It was not first worn after the order of 5 May 1934, but well before that. The order of 5 May 1934 as posted by Friedrich-Berthold (which was the basis for the publication in the RZM's Mitteilungsblatt cited by me) only confirmed that this already-existing cuff title was continued to be worn.

    The cuff title was introduced at some point in 1933, probably in September. (I have no exact date.)


    Quote by Jux View Post
    Can you give me the date of the end of this Gothic cuff title which mark the beginning of the Sutterling one ? Because i own a Gothic one and i would like to know the exact date of birth (5 May 1934) and dead of this cuff title
    We have seen that 5 May 1934 is not the birthdate of this cuff title. As for the date of its "death": Old insignia don't so much die as fade away, as their replacement by new patterns is always a transitional process. Photographs of Hitler's 1934 inspection of the Leibstandarte's Lichterfelde barracks show both the Gothic and Sütterlin styles simultaneously in wear. Thus, we know for sure that the Sütterlin model was already in use by then. Who knows when the Gothic pattern was finally worn out by its very last wearer?


    Quote by Jux View Post
    For the "Stosstrupp AH 1923" do you know the date of apparition of this cuff title ? I've heard about 1936 but i'm not shure at all.
    Mollo gives its introduction date as 25 May 1936.


    Quote by Jux View Post
    Moreover can someone wear 2 cuff titles together ? For example can someone wear an Adolf Hitler Sutterlin cuff title and the Stosstrupp commemorative one together ?
    Yes. But they were worn on different sleeves anyway.

    As for the simultaneous wearing of more than one cuff title on the left sleeve, this is another story altogether. For quite a long time, there were numerous cases when two or sometimes even three cuff titles appeared together on the left sleeve (and quite officially so), but the wearing of more than one cuff title in this fashion was eventually abolished in August 1943. This, however, is another story altogether and did not affect the wearing of the Stoßtrupp cuff title.


    Allow me a general word of advice on the matter of exact dates: Of course this is of a certain interest. However, in the interest of sanity, one should really not get too obsessed with this. Official introduction dates did not necessarily - or even usually - match the dates when the respective badges and insignia actually started to be worn. Items may have made their actual appearance before being officially regulated or may have become available only quite a long time after their official introduction. Likewise, if badges or insignia were discontinued, this was always done with a wear-out period (of sometimes substantial length), and even after such periods had officially expired, unofficial wear still continued in many cases.

  4. #23

    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	patches 1935.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	102.3 KB 
ID:	780793Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ss-album-06.jpg 
Views:	105 
Size:	215.6 KB 
ID:	780794Click image for larger version. 

Name:	white versus grey embroidery '35.jpg 
Views:	64 
Size:	88.3 KB 
ID:	780807".......
    Allow me a general word of advice on the matter of exact dates: Of course this is of a certain interest. However, in the interest of sanity, one should really not get too obsessed with this. Official introduction dates did not necessarily - or even usually - match the dates when the respective badges and insignia actually started to be worn. Items may have made their actual appearance before being officially regulated or may have become available only quite a long time after their official introduction. Likewise, if badges or insignia were discontinued, this was always done with a wear-out period (of sometimes substantial length), and even after such periods had officially expired, unofficial wear still continued in many cases. ..."

    Bravo, Andreas, a statement of real historical insight. We have examined the evidence of this generalization many times over.
    damit, basta.

  5. #24

    Default

    Mr. Jux also owes a major debt to Andreas, who is a wonderful teacher and far more gifted of forbearance than am I.
    damit, basta.

  6. #25

    Default

    ...as do we all......
    damit, basta.

  7. #26

    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Untitled 2.jpg 
Views:	29 
Size:	80.3 KB 
ID:	780808Read and weep.....
    damit, basta.

  8. #27

    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	186965d1300204271-danziger-totenkopf-in-its-variety-some-black-caps-poorly-photgraphed-hg-46f.jpg 
Views:	76 
Size:	156.6 KB 
ID:	780816Click image for larger version. 

Name:	embroidery of cuff titles June 1934 copy.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	221.1 KB 
ID:	780815Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN0853 copy.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	116.4 KB 
ID:	780814One other fact: in the epoch 1933 1934, the custom existed for SS units to contract directly with local vendors for requirements. This practice included the use of blank cuff titles and collar patches, which were then embroidered also locally. These practices were to be abolished in the course of 1934 with the standardization of the uniform via the RFSS, the VA SS and the RZM.

    We have included the evidence on these practices, and whether they applied to the nascent LAH I surely cannot answer, but they did apply to the SS as a whole.

    The collector dogma assumes a standardization and homogenization of this regalia based on a.) a caricature of German bureaucracy more or less based on little historical evidence and b.) the self reflexive hide bound thinking of collectors who want a series of short, choppy rules to eradicate the natural chaos inherent in this regalia.

    If there is one insight I have derived from work here in this space with the newly available sources it is thus: SS insignia ca 1932-1939 was far more chaotic a field than I ever knew, not the least because the "aw sh!t" orders ex post facto to the troops scolding one and all for non compliance display the fact that the contemporaries were pretty confused by it all.

    That is to say, there is no silver bullet or Rosetta Stone to eradicate the contradictions, the exceptions and the unknown unknowns (Kahn) from all of this.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 12-23-2014 at 07:25 PM.
    damit, basta.

  9. #28
    Jux
    Jux is offline
    ?

    Default

    Thank you all for all this knowledge Misters the Teachers

    Ah yep sorry i thought the 5 May 1934 order was the order to wear this gothic cuff title. You said maybe September 1934 ? I've got the SS-Sonderkommando Berlin and the Adolf Hitler Standarte for September 1934. Seems legit no ?

    Yep if someone here know the date of appearance of the Sutterlin Adolf Hitler cuff title i will really appreciate

    Yeah you're right i will kill myself with the quest of exact dates haha

    Thank you for the infos about the Stosstrupp commemorative cuff title. With your informations now i can buy one for my collection showcase (a replica yes unfortunately).

    Friedrich-Berthold i can't read german so i'm unable to understand the images you posted :/

    To thank you all here is a photo of my SS collection showcase (i've got original Werhmacht pieces on other floors but i think you easly understand why i don't have original Waffen SS pieces I M NOT RICH lol)
    enlighted as you are you don't need of descriptions
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20141222_154355.jpg 
Views:	415 
Size:	221.0 KB 
ID:	780864

    Have a nice day

  10. #29

    Default

    Quote by Jux View Post
    You said maybe September 1934 ? I've got the SS-Sonderkommando Berlin and the Adolf Hitler Standarte for September 1934. Seems legit no ?
    I didn't. Please re-read what I wrote.


    Quote by Jux View Post
    To thank you all here is a photo of my SS collection showcase (i've got original Werhmacht pieces on other floors but i think you easly understand why i don't have original Waffen SS pieces I M NOT RICH lol)
    You are, of course, free to collect replica items if it pleases you.

    Still, allow me to remark that the "Handschar" cuff title is not even a replica, but a pure fantasy item as it never existed in the era.

    Also, the cap appears to be simply a re-badged East German army cap; not a very good representation of an SS cap at all. There are far better copies out there.

  11. #30
    ?

    Default

    Very interesting and informative discussion gentlemen , many thanks for the contributions of the usual " suspects " !!

    Just as a point is there any photographic evidence of the Gothic cuff title being worn much later in the 30's or even during the war ? As Andreas has said the early Gothic cuff title will have phased out over a period of time when the Sutterlin was introduced but the early members of the may have continued to wear it as an indication of their " old sweat " status in the LAH !!

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. leibstandarte Adolf Hitler

    In Photos - Papers - Propaganda of the Third Reich
    10-03-2014, 11:48 PM
  2. leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

    In Photos - Papers - Propaganda of the Third Reich
    03-01-2014, 06:56 PM
  3. leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

    In Photos - Papers - Propaganda of the Third Reich
    02-17-2014, 08:38 PM
  4. leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

    In Photos - Papers - Propaganda of the Third Reich
    10-31-2013, 08:38 PM
  5. leibstandarte Adolf Hitler

    In Photos - Papers - Propaganda of the Third Reich
    09-22-2013, 08:03 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •