Several Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler cuff titles

[Jux]

Sorry of course it's cannot be september 1934 because it's after the order of the 5 May 1934 which confirm the existence of the gothic cuff title. I meant september 1933 ans it's consistent with SS-Sonderkommando Berlin and AH Standarte.

No i don't collect replica but i've got replica of Waffen SS items yes. And i already knew for the Handschar cuff title but as i've got the Fez, the flag patch and the collar tab i wanted a cuff title too to be able to present the history of this original unit to no historian people, just to know.

If someone know the date of appearance of the Sutterlin AH cuff title i will really appreciate.

[d'alquen]

That Adolf Hitler gothic title is an interesting topic. Based on the evidence I personally don't feel that it is the so-called first pattern. According to LAH records the Adolf Hitler Standarte was granted the right to wear the name at the Nuremburg Rally on September 9, 1933. Photographic evidence of the rally shows that the cuff title had not been issued at that time as all members of the unit wore no cuff title. Photographs after the rally and in the following two months show the new authorised title being worn on the tunic; in each and every case the title is in Sütterlin script.
The only photograph I have seen of the Gothic title in wear is by an officer during the Hitler visit to the LAH barracks at the end of December 1935.This later date would suggest to me that the title was possibly meant to replace the script version, possibly to bring uniformity to the SS-VT cuffbands.

[jimt]

That Adolf Hitler gothic title is an interesting topic. Based on the evidence I personally don't feel that it is the so-called first pattern. According to LAH records the Adolf Hitler Standarte was granted the right to wear the name at the Nuremburg Rally on September 9, 1933. Photographic evidence of the rally shows that the cuff title had not been issued at that time as all members of the unit wore no cuff title. Photographs after the rally and in the following two months show the new authorised title being worn on the tunic; in each and every case the title is in Sütterlin script.
The only photograph I have seen of the Gothic title in wear is by an officer during the Hitler visit to the LAH barracks at the end of December 1935.This later date would suggest to me that the title was possibly meant to replace the script version, possibly to bring uniformity to the SS-VT cuffbands.

I also cannot agree that the LAH cufftitle in Gothic is a first pattern .If there is a photo of the cufftitle being worn in 1933-34 I would certainly like to see it ? In fact the only picture I have ever seen of this gothic pattern is of the officer visiting the barracks , believe it came from a cigarette album .

[Friedrich-Berthold]

The above two intervention are: a.) welcome and based on decades of experience and b.) also speak to why the particular volume, always cited---but not by me--is full of mistakes.

[HPL2008]

As always, d'alquen steps in with an interesting observation giving us food for thought and reminding us to keep an open mind on these matters...

Conventional wisdom has it that the Gothic script version of the cuff title was the first pattern, soon replaced by the Sütterlin one. This information is not just found in the not-to-be-cited-here work referred to by Friedrich-Berthold, but also in many other places, such as the Cook & Bender work on the Leibstandarte or the Williamson & McGuirl one on cuff titles.

Of course, "conventional wisdom" does not necessarily mean "correct" and the problem with secondary sources is always that one can never be sure whether an author's conclusions on such matters are really his own or simply adopted at face value from those that came before.

In fact, both works mention that the Gothic pattern is still illustrated in the 1936 edition of the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP, but attribute this to the fact that the Organisationsbuch was often slow to make changes in its illustrations and at times was years out of date. (The 1937 edition illustrates the Sütterlin version.)

If the Gothic pattern was indeed around in 1936, we would not need the assumption of its presence being an editorial mistake. (If I have understood that whole Occam's razor thingie correctly, the less assumptions needed to explain something, the better.)

The Cook & Bender work has a photograph of an inspection of the LAH barracks by Hitler & Dietrich showing both the Sütterlin and Gothic patterns worn which is dated to 1934, but of course, this may be erroneous as well.

So, what does that all leave us with?

We know for sure that the Gothic pattern had been in existence by 1936. We also know for sure that it was worn concurrently with the Sütterlin one (as is evident from the inspection photo, no matter when exactly it was taken). We can safely assume that it was short-lived and/or saw only very limited wear (otherwise it would be present in more pictures of this much-photographed unit).

Unless new documentation shows up, the rest is speculation; but the theory of it being an abortive second- (rather than first-) pattern is certainly one to be taken seriously.

Maybe it was officially instituted in the interest of standardization and then withdrawn again soon after, following a change of heart by Himmler or even a decision by Hitler himself (perhaps resulting from an intervention by Dietrich)?
Maybe its manufacture and distribution was the result of a misunderstood regulation stating that SSVT cuff titles were to be in Gothic script but omitting to expressly mention the one exception of the Leibstandarte?
Both versions don't seem so far-fetched considering the period in question, the inner workings of the SS apparatus and the mindset of the protagonists involved in the making of such decisions.

[d'alquen]

The photograph cited in Cook and Bender's book on the LAH is indeed dated incorrectly.The presence of field grey uniforms that weren't issued until the middle of 1935 should have been enough to alert the caption writer. The photograph was one of a series taken by Hoffmann of Hitler's visit on the date I mentioned above and have pictured below: December 17, 1935.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Many of the Hoffman pictures of these and other visits in the Finckensteinallee and elsewhere are in the Heimdal books.

Thanks for the careful analysis.

[HPL2008]

It would seem Mr. Jux has lost interest in this discussion...

[MAP]

It would seem Mr. Jux has lost interest in this discussion...

But not me! Very educational. Thanks!

Michael

[Friedrich-Berthold]

It would seem Mr. Jux has lost interest in this discussion...

Andreas, this collapse of ambition or engagement is often the norm here, as you know.

At least we can all converse with each other, I am always happier for it.