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short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

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  1. #11
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    My Thanks to all for helping me with my query about these odd collar patches. Thank you to Ade for providing and policing the small patch we stand on.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #12

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Frankly, I'm amazed that some one like Charlie Snyder isn't advertising a pair of them for sale....
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  4. #13
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    I am pretty sure that these two images also show the white kragenspiegel. Many thanks to all.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  5. #14

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Thanks for the extra images and info guys!

    I too think Angolia's colour theory is flawed.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

  6. #15

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    I checked tens of early NSDAP-booklets from 1933 and 1934 and in one "Das Braunhemd" from about 1933 it is said:
    Farbe der Spiegel der SS allgemein - schwarz (color for the SS-collarpatches generally in black);
    Für Angehörige des Stabes der Obersten SA-Führung - karmesinrot (for members from the OSAF-staff in crimson).
    Himmler was a staff-member and so was his adjutant. According to the booklet they will have worn crimson.

    In 1934 there is no mention anymore about a color difference, but many booklets and plates are vague in its explanation!
    In spring 1934 it is said: collar-patches from Standartenführer upwards do wear black velvet collar-patches (Mbl.RZM, June 23, 1934. P.5).
    Nothing was said about RFSS.

    BUT.........

    In a letter from the RFSS, Himmler, dated December 1, 1933 (IV Tgb. Nr.49 103) and signed by the chief of department IV it is said:
    with 1) the collar-patches for the ranks Standartenführer including and upwards collar patches are black velvet;
    with 6) all SS-men belonging to the staff RFSS have to wear WHITE cloth or velvet collar patches. In German it is literally said:
    Alle planmässig zum Stabe Reichsführer SS gehörenden SS-Männer und SS-Dienstgrade erhalten anstelle der schwarzen Spiegel
    solche aus weissem Tuch bzw. weissem Samt
    .
    The white patches only one could purchase through the department IV.

    Maybe with this the question is finally solved!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  7. #16

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Thanks Wim!

    As always the answer lies within original documentation.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

  8. #17

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Just by accident my eyes felt on the letter from the RFSS (IV Tgb. Nr. 49 103). The order was official with the date December 1, 1933.
    So Himmler will have worn white also!

    I have no letter found where the white is being abolished, but this must be surely early 1935. Maybe one of the members has here
    information! In price-list 2, published in the Mbl. d. RZM from January 19, 1935 no other colored collar-patches are being offered. But
    this is posible as the white patches were an exception (see where to be purchased in the earlier post).
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #18

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Many thanks to Wim Saris for the above information. This confirms that the collar patches where indeed white and identified the RFSS staff and it also supports the 1933/1934 timeframe.

  10. #19

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Could it be possible that for an even shorter while those from the SS for the OSAF staff did wear crimson before
    the introduction of white. See what I said about "Das Braunhemd". That would make the period for white even
    more shorter! Just a thought!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  11. #20

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Thanks to all for all the wise counsel and documentation.
    These 'what ifs' are very pleasing.
    damit, basta.

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