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short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

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  1. #21

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Quote by Adrian Stevenson View Post
    Thanks for the extra images and info guys!

    I too think Angolia's colour theory is flawed.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Without putting too fine a point on it, herewith one of many flaws in said book. Also a reason why Adrian's site and its stalwarts furnish the wider world with a valuable service at a very fair price.
    PS I should also say that all books have flaws, of course, and those of us who write such things are the first to admit as much. Those who cannot put a pen to paper should consider as much with their promiscuous criticism.
    However, this particular book has an outsize influence on the biotope and such is not always a force for the betterment of all.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-23-2013 at 09:07 PM.
    damit, basta.

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  3. #22
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Am I correct in assuming that these white velvet tabs worn by Himmler would have had three oak leaves with one pip?

  4. #23

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Name:  10009859.jpg
Views: 4118
Size:  27.4 KBHere is an image of Heini H of the date...?

    - - Updated - -

    Name:  10009859.jpg
Views: 4118
Size:  27.4 KBHere is an image of Heini H of the date... that is prior to the advent of the white Spiegel?

    - - Updated - -

    oops. You get the point.
    damit, basta.

  5. #24
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    For comparison, here is a picture of Robert Bergmann wearing the OSAF collar tabs.

    Name:  bergmann.jpg
Views: 849
Size:  34.0 KB

  6. #25

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Quote by Walter View Post
    For comparison, here is a picture of Robert Bergmann wearing the OSAF collar tabs.

    Name:  bergmann.jpg
Views: 849
Size:  34.0 KB
    Very nice, thank you.
    damit, basta.

  7. #26
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Thanks to the clarification of Mr d'alquen this officer also belongs in this thread.
    Name:  stam.jpg
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    This thread is a good example of why I feel I am in such good and esteemed company on this site. Thanks.

  8. #27

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Post 19 I said: That would make the period for white even more shorter! This was wrong or?

    I quoted from "Das Braunhemd":
    Farbe der Spiegel der SS allgemein - schwarz (color for the SS-collarpatches generally in black);
    Für Angehörige des Stabes der Obersten SA-Führung - karmesinrot (for members from the OSAF-staff in crimson). With this of course the SS was meant!
    Crimson was however in use after the introduction for the white (December 1933). Angolia and Mollo are indeed right: crimson existed within the SS.

    In the "Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung", number 17 from February 1934 with ziffre 18 it is said:
    SS-leaders commanded for service in the staff from the OSAF do wear collar-patches in crimson, the backing for the shoulder-strap also is crimson.
    At the arm they do wear a cuffband in BLACK with in silver "Oberste SA-Führung".

    So.......crimson was a true fact
    and was not "invented" by the earlier mentioned authors!

    After the Röhm problems the SS became a seperate organization when Hitler said on July 20, 1934: "Ich erhebe die SS zu einer selbständigen Organization der NSDAP"
    ("Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP" from July 1934).
    The crimson will have lasted until in later 1934 the insignia for the SS was re-organized. Himmler ordered the one and the other per October 24, 1934 (Chef des SS-Amtes I O Nr. 088281 K./E.). This order was for example published in the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei", number 25 from November 17, 1934. Page 6.

    The white was introduced December 1933; the crimson in February 1934. It is the question if the white indeed was replaced by those that had to wear crimson! And did indeed all of them wear crimson instead of replacing the white!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 03-24-2013 at 01:14 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #28

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    Quote by Walter View Post
    For comparison, here is a picture of Robert Bergmann wearing the OSAF collar tabs.
    Thanks for that additional image. His Oberste SA-Führung cuff title can also be made out.


    Quote by Arran View Post
    Am I correct in assuming that these white velvet tabs worn by Himmler would have had three oak leaves with one pip?
    Yes. Prior to the introduction of the special collar patches for the Reichsführer-SS following the SS' becoming independent from the SA in 1934, Himmler wore standard senior officer's collar insignia for the ranks from SS-Oberführer through SS-Obergruppenführer.
    I don't know the exact dates for his rank insignia changes, but the earliest portraits of Himmler in his black service uniform (= dating from no earlier than 1932) still show the Gruppenführer collar patches, while he definitely wore Obergruppenführer insignia (= at the time the said three oakleaves and a pip) by August 1933 at the latest. (Wim Saris or d'Alquen might be able to provide a more precise timeline.)


    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    Here is an image of Heini H of the date... that is prior to the advent of the white Spiegel?
    That would be right. Wearing the black service uniform with first pattern cap insignia*, he is already wearing SS-Obergruppenführer collar patches, but not yet his Blood Order, Golden Party Badge or Honor Chevron. I would date this photograph to 1933.


    *) Notice that Messrs. Himmler & Wolff are already wearing second pattern Death's Head insignia in the Dec. 1933 photograph that started this thread, whereas the secondary literature generally lists 1934 as its introduction date.
    (Of course, d'Alquen had already pointed out proof for its 1933 use in a much earlier thread, but I thought this additional bit of photographic evidence is of interest here.)
    Last edited by HPL2008; 03-24-2013 at 03:39 PM.

  10. #29
    ?

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    I think that Wolff is wearing the silk-top visor in this pic, which is now owned by Paul Sack...

  11. #30

    Default Re: short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

    I think it might be wise to clarify the two pieces of insignia that are being discussed here.
    The carmine backed patch for SS Leaders attached to the Oberste SA-Fuehrung that Bergmann is wearing in the picture did not replace the white patches. It was specifically for SS Leaders like Bergmann who served within the SA High command. (A position that would ultimately cost Bergmann his membership of the SS and the Party in 1934.)
    The white patches were for active members of the staff of the RFSS and nothing to do with assignment to the SA High Command.
    Thanks for pointing out the cap insignia HPL.
    d'Alquen

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