short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

**jHAM** · 03-22-2013, 09:46 AM

I have only read a passing reference to some white collar insignia used by Himmler for only a brief time in a very old post of F-B's. I think this photo shows just such a thing. Can anyone provide a description of them or reference with more info.

The shape of Wolff's cap is interesting to me in comparison to Himmlers and the typically more round shape of the early caps.

short lived white kragenspiegel of Himmler

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 03-22-2013 09:46 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Adrian Stevenson** · 03-22-2013, 10:52 AM

The photo was taken at the opening of the Reichstag on Dec 12th 1933. It is shown in Angolia on page 63 and appears to be the only image that I am aware of? I wonder if more research might pull up another, given the date and location?

Angolia says it is unknown and expounds a theory that it could even be the crimson of the Oberst SA-Fuhrung?

Cheers, Ade.

**Scout** · 03-22-2013, 11:13 AM

Man, the TR uniform code is a jungle!

**Walter** · 03-22-2013, 11:50 AM

Here is another picture.

**KMMorris** · 03-22-2013, 12:08 PM

Angolia says it is unknown and expounds a theory that it could even be the crimson of the Oberst SA-Fuhrung

Yes and also the very short lifespan of this Cuff tile.

Morris

**HPL2008** · 03-22-2013, 03:25 PM

by jHAM

I have only read a passing reference to some white collar insignia used by Himmler for only a brief time in a very old post of F-B's. I think this photo shows just such a thing. Can anyone provide a description of them or reference with more info.

It is generally assumed that Himmler wore these only for a brief period around the winter of 1933/1934. There are only very few known photographs that show him wearing them; as far as I know all of them can be dated around this time.

(Apart from the two shown in this thread, I have seen at least one other photograph, taken at a 1933 event at the Sportpalast in Berlin. The SZ photo above with Rudolf Diels is dated 1 Jan. 1933, but that can't be correct as Diels is wearing the collar patches for a Standartenführer, a rank to which he was only promoted as per 9 Nov. 1933.)

As far as I know, no offical documentation has appeared on these insignia. Perhaps Mr. d'Alquen has more information on the subject.

by Adrian Stevenson

Angolia says it is unknown and expounds a theory that it could even be the crimson of the Oberst SA-Fuhrung?

Frankly, I've never bought that theory. They are clearly too light in color to be crimson. They are most likely white or, if not pure white, perhaps ivory-colored or of a very light shade of light grey?

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 03-22-2013, 09:01 PM

by HPL2008

It is generally assumed that Himmler wore these only for a brief period around the winter of 1933/1934. There are only very few known photographs that show him wearing them; as far as I know all of them can be dated around this time.

(Apart from the two shown in this thread, I have seen at least one other photograph, taken at a 1933 event at the Sportpalast in Berlin. The SZ photo above with Rudolf Diels is dated 1 Jan. 1933, but that can't be correct as Diels is wearing the collar patches for a Standartenführer, a rank to which he was only promoted as per 9 Nov. 1933.)

As far as I know, no offical documentation has appeared on these insignia. Perhaps Mr. d'Alquen has more information on the subject.

Frankly, I've never bought that theory. They are clearly too light in color to be crimson. They are most likely white or, if not pure white, perhaps ivory-colored or of a very light shade of light grey?

Well said. The 1974 work on Himmler's speeches published by Smith and Peterson in Germany contains several of these images of this pivotal period with the white or grey or crimson collar patches.
I imagine that they were white or grey, in fact. This book was published forty years ago, however, but it has an excellent illustration section.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 03-22-2013, 09:07 PM

Thanks to Mr. JHam for his subtle and refined knowledge of the pictorial record and its riddles and enigmas. So much more value than the ordinary post is found in this kind of inquiry here and beyond.

**d'alquen** · 03-23-2013, 01:16 AM

The patches are definitely white (red appears as black or dark grey in monochrome photos). I believe the white patches were introduced for the RFSS and his staff in December of 1933. They obviously didn't last long as there few pictures of them in wear. I can't say that I have seen other examples apart from the Reichstag opening and the Diels picture.
d'Alquen