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SS Judicial Tunic

Article about: Not utterly unlike the one on offer on the Gottlieb and Whammond site, but this piece is integral and authentic. It also cost only a fraction of the asking price of the three pieces presentl

  1. #11

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    Not utterly unlike the one on offer on the Gottlieb and Whammond site, but this piece is integral and authentic.Click image for larger version. 

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    It also cost only a fraction of the asking price of the three pieces presently on offer, in fact.

    I am not sure what it all means in this house of mirrors of the Nazi past.
    damit, basta.

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  3. #12

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    So there were SS and police courts attached to each Higher SS/Police leader, i.e. the SS opposite number of a Wehrkreis?
    If this is the case, would such personages have worn the blank collar patch and cuff title? Would they not have worn the appropriate Oberabschnitt cuff title? I do not know. Someone must know here.Name:  cuff titles.jpg
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    This page illustrates sub echelons of the Oberabschnitt, by the way.

    I cannot always find the right picture, you know.
    damit, basta.

  4. #13

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    Whammond has an SS Oberabschnitt "Nordsee" cuff title on his site as an illustration for those interested. I would imagine that such a cuff title would be the appropriate one for such a tunic. I am also of the impression that the bulk of SS and police judicial officials were also later focused on the Waffen SS, thus making the black SS Gerichtsbarkeit tunic more dubious. But all of this is a guess.
    damit, basta.

  5. #14
    ?

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    At the risk of me too ism, I also think the tunic itself is quite real. The question adheres to the badges. What I could see of how the Paspel is attached to the collar instills little confidence in me. Whammond also has two black tunics which he claims are restored. I am also not sure that this arrangement of badges is the correct one, either. I.e. how the badges would be configured on an SS court Dienstrock. Does someone have an image of the era?
    The collar piping does seem a little heavy handed for an officer of the court's livery.

    I just noted the shadow "7" thanks to the astute eyes here.

    And I hope some mysteries of judicial badging are revealed, I am highly interested in the relics of the Hauptamt SS Gericht.

    As is often the case with the byzantine bloated bureaucracies of the SS was this a paper tiger or a feared beast during the times?

    Tricot

  6. #15
    ?

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    So there were SS and police courts attached to each Higher SS/Police leader, i.e. the SS opposite number of a Wehrkreis?
    If this is the case, would such personages have worn the blank collar patch and cuff title? Would they not have worn the appropriate Oberabschnitt cuff title? I do not know. Someone must know here...
    This is quite interesting. I have to grab some books to confirm or deny, but I'll assume SS JAG officers (to mix descriptors) were organic to the various SS command echelons. It falls apart for me when I attempt to track the absorption of the police and criminal court systems by the SS.

    Would a legal officer have a blank SD collar tab? Anyone have the regs on this?

  7. #16

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    The German wikipedia entry on SS Gerichtsbarkeit contains the statement that the SS Gerichte were attached to the HQ of the Higher SS/Police leaders. I normally do not "google" this sort of thing, but I have jet lag and a cold acquired between the Danube and the Canadian Rockies which has blurred my mind. I do not think this black uniform is authentic with the badges it presently has. The administration of justice in Nazi Germany is extensively analyzed in shelves and shelves of books, to include the military and the party organizations. Look in Google scholar or Google books. Mollo does not include this Aermelraute in vol. I on the Allgem. SS. I do not have much faith in the Angolia book, actually, as the final word on SS insignia.
    After Wim Saris posted many primary documents on Allgem. SS cuff titles on another website, I rather think that most of the secondary works on this theme require an abrupt and thorough going revision.

    PS The Orgbuch der NSDAP of 1938 contains some material on this issue on pp. 422ff. in the relevant entries and Organigramme.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 10-05-2010 at 12:46 AM.
    damit, basta.

  8. #17

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    For instance, none of the secondary works accounted for this phenomenon here.Click image for larger version. 

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    That is, the use of the roman numeral to denote the Standarte staff versus the Abschnitt. It is a hobby horse of mine.
    damit, basta.

  9. #18

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    The only way ever to figure most of this (i.e. insignia of this particular unit) out is to reproduce all the photos in the personnel files in the Berlin document center and hope that the cuff titles were photographed, too, in the process.

    I must say that the collar patches on the "judicial tunic" do not look bad to me, but I am skeptical of the Aermelraute and the cuff title, obviously. But who knows without actually looking at the bloody thing. The "SD" uniform on said site is also not without its weaknesses, as well. But my purpose here is NOT to engage in mindless dealer bashing. What is the point of same?
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 10-04-2010 at 07:27 PM.
    damit, basta.

  10. #19

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    According to regulations staff of the SS-Courts wore a cufftitle with 'RFSS' and a blank collar tab.
    In the orders for the special sleeve badge I have never seen any provision for silver piping on the raute.
    I do recall some Himmler correspondence that may have altered the title to 'SS-Hauptamt' in 1937 but I will have to find that again.
    d'alquen

  11. #20

    Default Re: SS Judicial Tunic

    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    According to regulations staff of the SS-Courts wore a cufftitle with 'RFSS' and a blank collar tab.
    In the orders for the special sleeve badge I have never seen any provision for silver piping on the raute.
    I do recall some Himmler correspondence that may have altered the title to 'SS-Hauptamt' in 1937 but I will have to find that again.
    d'alquen
    Thanks. I knew we could rely on your learning for the cause. Pfui as concerns this tunic then.
    damit, basta.

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