ss officers uniform

[BOB COLEMAN]

As I reread this old thread, it was amazing to me how the owner of this poor reproduction was basing his opinion on the black light and burn tests. The fakers have long ago learned how to construct a fake that will pass these tests. What most new collectors fail to understand is the most important aspect of judging an item is knowledge of form and construction, two facets which this uniform grouping blatantly fails. Except for older or cheaply produced fakes, the blacklight and burn tests no longer provide proof of authenticity.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

This kind exchange whenever it was with this shooting star of a novice collector illustrates why expertise or its opposite are a problematic thing. Would it not be easier just to declaim that the stupid fake is, in fact, real and let the person be happy?
The choice to take the high road of historical knowledge and an all encompassing and uncompromising Sachkritik as is done in professional historical study represents too much to demand of this kind of ill tempered and in experienced collector, who has dug himself a whole by spending the money first and asking a question afterwards.

In any case, I view all these sites with a jaundiced eye now, whereas when Bob and I met in the firmament in an innocent time, we were swept up in the promise of the thing.

Happy collecting, and may your Latvian wombat collectables and somewhat less foetid woolens from your neighborhood Knight's Cross winner and close personal friend of Josef "Sepp" Dietrich reside in glory in your collecting den, i.e. Herrenzimmer.

[davesap250]

Just been reading the thread purely to learn and try and understand and in the future spot a fake. I am by no means an expert on any of these items.

But to have a Wiking cuff title? They must be like rocking horse s***??!! Plus, eeven on my little knowledge, my first thoughts on seeing the badge of the eagle on the arm just does not look right at all. (and that was before I read any comments).

It is a useful thread and the more people can learn then the more people will be less inclined to part with hard earned cash.

"Every day is a school day"

[sitges1990]

F.B., I know that you, including the esteemed members you mentioned, have become somewhat disheartened with the in vogue collectors of today. I can assure you that the vast majority of the collectors on this forum respect and crave the knowledge you and your brethren have amassed in your heads over the years. You gentleman have learned this wonderful "hobby" through extensive reading, research, and dare I say analytical thinking. There truely is a new group of collectors coming up that are learning how to do it the "right" way through you gentlemen. Please don't let the rubes knock the wind out of your sails.

Jay

[Troy Tempest]

Well, I for one am always ready to listen and learn from people who clearly will forget more than I will ever learn about certain fields of collecting, and not just militaria. I once ran a small and insignificant military history site, which was unfortunately destroyed from within, and during that time was always grateful for the advice and general musings of people who were experten in their chosen areas, long time collectors, historians, and most importantly, veterans, for their first hand experience. It was always a bonus as site owner, to have THE POWER to delete or just ban idiots who engaged in flame wars and other provocative behaviour!

I am now becoming reasonably knowledgeable in WHW and tinnies, thanks mainly to excellent reference books, spending lots of money (much to my childrens annoyance), and interaction with other like minded people, who often have collections that dwarf my own. Even though in all probability the time has passed where I will ever buy a uniform (much as I'd love one of FBs!), or high-end awards, I always enjoy reading posts from people who know how to spot fakes of all kinds. Another collector on another site spent a fair bit of his own time running me through ways to spot fake 1870 EKIIs, for which I will always be grateful, even though I never bought any.

Today I can look at a lot on ebay, and if not spot some clear flaws, at least be wary, something I wouldn't be able to do if not for listening and learning! I also thought at first sight the sleeve eagle looked dodgy, and I know next to nothing about them. It just looked wrong. I got burnt a few times when I started out, but took the advice thankfully, and tried to learn from it, I never argued the point endlessly with people who took the trouble to try and help. I am now happy to say I have been able to help some small collectors with advice on tinnies and WHW items re fakes, prices etc. The circle of life!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

F.B., I know that you, including the esteemed members you mentioned, have become somewhat disheartened with the in vogue collectors of today. I can assure you that the vast majority of the collectors on this forum respect and crave the knowledge you and your brethren have amassed in your heads over the years. You gentleman have learned this wonderful "hobby" through extensive reading, research, and dare I say analytical thinking. There truely is a new group of collectors coming up that are learning how to do it the "right" way through you gentlemen. Please don't let the rubes knock the wind out of your sails.

Jay

Dear Sir, thank you. Were I a person of superior character, I would restrain my disappointments to confessional (but I am not a Catholic) or to drink (which I don't really do, either..) However, your kind words are a real balsam. Ben and I have had correspondence over his frustration, which I should also restrict to a private circle.
But what is private any longer, I ask you? In any case, many warm thanks to you and much good fortune do I wish you in your collecting and historical interests.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Well, I for one am always ready to listen and learn from people who clearly will forget more than I will ever learn about certain fields of collecting, and not just militaria. I once ran a small and insignificant military history site, which was unfortunately destroyed from within, and during that time was always grateful for the advice and general musings of people who were experten in their chosen areas, long time collectors, historians, and most importantly, veterans, for their first hand experience. It was always a bonus as site owner, to have THE POWER to delete or just ban idiots who engaged in flame wars and other provocative behaviour!

I am now becoming reasonably knowledgeable in WHW and tinnies, thanks mainly to excellent reference books, spending lots of money (much to my childrens annoyance), and interaction with other like minded people, who often have collections that dwarf my own. Even though in all probability the time has passed where I will ever buy a uniform (much as I'd love one of FBs!), or high-end awards, I always enjoy reading posts from people who know how to spot fakes of all kinds. Another collector on another site spent a fair bit of his own time running me through ways to spot fake 1870 EKIIs, for which I will always be grateful, even though I never bought any.

Today I can look at a lot on ebay, and if not spot some clear flaws, at least be wary, something I wouldn't be able to do if not for listening and learning! I also thought at first sight the sleeve eagle looked dodgy, and I know next to nothing about them. It just looked wrong. I got burnt a few times when I started out, but took the advice thankfully, and tried to learn from it, I never argued the point endlessly with people who took the trouble to try and help. I am now happy to say I have been able to help some small collectors with advice on tinnies and WHW items re fakes, prices etc. The circle of life!

Dear Sir, thanks, too, for your fine intervention. My amusement that you dug up this somewhat dated exchange, in which the whole dynamics of desire versus knowledge versus vanity versus history come into full play. You do remind us that you already know it, which I am sure you do and thank you for the word of measured reason in the face of paranoia, resentment, puffery, cant, affect, and down right bull sh!t which among some of my contemporaries passes for thought and reflection. My goal here is not, in the first instance, to amass a list of fakes, and thereby to stoke my own ego with a claque of internet groupies and hangers on who grunt and roar approval. Our goal, and that is in the first sense, Adrian's goal, has been capacity building through education via authentic examples and their history in the fullest sense. This capacity building is my goal, and not the fashioning of these endless, incomplete, ahistorical lists, which are usually just wrong, and, finally, dangerous, as is evident in the black hat catastrophe of the moment, which apparently, some believe is the fault of those who are well informed. However, those who are or are not well informed endure a huge ration of sh!t from the ill informed, to include hectoring, digital lynching and what not. So, in short, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot burn what one prayed to, and pray to what one has burnt, as it were, and then expect the truth at all times, and at finger tips. Or, as the Germans say: as you call into the forest, so comes the echo. So, those who behave badly in the end are doing themselves huge damage, which does not really affect me as much as it does them, since they are incapable of learning and engage in Freudian projection of their own shortcomings on others. My colleagues and I are happy to share what we know or might not know, and are more eager to learn from you who know yet more, which is generally the case. This has all come about by a quirk of machinery in the last decade or so, and its social organization leaves me uncomfortable. Analysis and written word still resonates with some who read these lines, and we need to pull more tightly together in the face of the mob that hates thought and reason.

In any case, warm thanks for your constructive presence here and on to greater moments of foetid, cast off pieces of total war in Europe and beyond.

[sitges1990]

My daughter is currently attending a University made of brick and mortar, rare today, where 30% of her classes this last year were taught with no books! I know you've covered this a million times F.B. but the search for true knowledge today is fading fast. Kids gain their knowledge today by jumping on the computer and googling it. I was horrified earlier this year when she was writing a paper and used Wikipedia of all things as a source. Will things ever come back full circle? We can only hope. I keep telling myself the glass is half full, half full.................................

Jay

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Just been reading the thread purely to learn and try and understand and in the future spot a fake. I am by no means an expert on any of these items.

But to have a Wiking cuff title? They must be like rocking horse s***??!! Plus, eeven on my little knowledge, my first thoughts on seeing the badge of the eagle on the arm just does not look right at all. (and that was before I read any comments).

It is a useful thread and the more people can learn then the more people will be less inclined to part with hard earned cash.

"Every day is a school day"

Do find yourself a more or less trustworthy collector, who will let you actually examine with eyes, noses, throat, fingers, and other organs (brain, perhaps) his or her collection. This is essential first step, that is to see real material in real life and time versus these hall of mirrors threads and all the pictures, which, I think, can often give a false impression. I always smell regalia, truth be told, and I feel it, and I look at it for hours with a magnifying glass. The latter is essential, too. Now, truth be told, these strictures disable many of you, because you have no access to such persons and objects. However, nothing comes from nothing, and do make the effort if you wish to buy a piece of SS uniform that costs several thousand Euros or dollars, or ducats, or dinars.....

I cannot gainsay my own tactile encounter with what by right I describe as foetid woolens, though I do try not to drool or sweat on them.....

[Friedrich-Berthold]

My daughter is currently attending a University made of brick and mortar, rare today, where 30% of her classes this last year were taught with no books! I know you've covered this a million times F.B. but the search for true knowledge today is fading fast. Kids gain their knowledge today by jumping on the computer and googling it. I was horrified earlier this year when she was writing a paper and used Wikipedia of all things as a source. Will things ever come back full circle? We can only hope. I keep telling myself the glass is half full, half full.................................

Jay

Thanks for this most essential issue. I teach with books, to be sure, which the persons can download. I also use You Tube, and leverage Wikipedia in my seminars so the onus of looking things up is on them, but I can control and improve the output. Wikipedia is much better than it was, in fact, and the editorial process is at work there. I also use the on line stuff to teach them to find better material, which is surely there. Further, I use film and pictures to reinforce what is in the books. I am glad that I am at the end of my career, and not the beginning. I collect, read, and write books, as you might know, so I remain committed to books and see little alternative. The Wikipedia ization of major issues to superficiality is a major problem, but an adept mind can adjust to the new reality. I have always found the visual dimension of history compelling, and it was the uniforms that made me become a professional historian. Also, we all are learning something with this medium, but I hate on line courses, and I, myself, wont teach them. But in another way, this here is an online course in foetid woolens, which is damaged by all the jerk offs who intrude into class. Ergo my suggestion that we restrict the circle to a like minded group, who respects the material and each other. We have the cadre of such a thing here, thanks to my colleagues, Adrian S. and Bob C. Thanks and I am sure that your daughter will learn. Afterall, when Guttenberg created movable type, great uproar followed, too, to include the reformation. Maybe such awaits us, but I love books and will not surrender their world to anyone, and won't do so in my seminars. My students complain about how much they read, but they read it all the same. Those who do it well get a better grade.