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SS RZM Tags

Article about: by richard kimmel friedrich i located this guide on ebay and would ask, how accurate do you feel it is? This is about 69% right. It seems a lot of sellers tout the presense of an rzm stamp o

  1. #1

    Default SS RZM Tags

    Was there any specified criteria for the production of SS RZM Tags? And, were there variations within their production (design). It seems difficult to distinguish genuine from bogus in this area?

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  3. #2

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Hi Richard, I have moved your thread here into the SS forum.

    We have a huge amount of photos of original SS RZM tags here. "FB" has kindly shown a great many.

    Cheers, Ade.

  4. #3

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Quote by Adrian Stevenson View Post
    Hi Richard, I have moved your thread here into the SS forum.

    We have a huge amount of photos of original SS RZM tags here. "FB" has kindly shown a great many.

    Cheers, Ade.
    also the handbook of the hj from saris has a whole chapter dedicated to the rzm and its tags very good info i have been told.

    thanks

  5. #4

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    The answer to your question is to be found in the following: a.) Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM; b.) Mitteilungsblaetter der RZM; c.) Uniformenmarkt; d.) the threads we have laboriously created here with more original examples than are to be found anywhere; e.) the secondary works with some understanding of the RZM, i.e. the older work of C.R. Davis from the 1970s, the more recent work from the Canadian who is an expert on metalic NS Bedarf and the Bender books with primary research.

    Further, your question is not clear as to who specified what to whom? The Herstellungsvorschriften include an enormous amount about these tags, while the Uniformenmarkt makes clear how the RZM worked within the cosmos of German uniforms and regalia as whole in the 1930s.

    The fakers make a number of mistakes with these tags, which I, for one, will not reveal in a public place, granted as a collector of these objects, I have no interest in doing myself or you dirt.

    The fakers copy what we put here, sometimes well, and sometimes less well.

    My posts and those of others have otherwise vastly improved the quality of fakes as it is.

    The key here is acute powers of observation.

    If you wish, show us something, and we can comment on it, but, once more, I am not going to give away the list of crucial and at times subtle errors made by the fakers.

    At the same time, there were many different kinds of RZM tag, in fact, as many as there were items, and these evolved in the brief period from 1934 or so until the end of the war when they were in use.

    I found a copy of the Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM this year, as well as the CD of Uniformenmarkt from 1934-1945, which is a fine investment.

    And costs much less than a "scull."
    damit, basta.

  6. #5

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Friedrich

    I understand you position completely with regard to disclosing the tiny secrets of detection. I too have restricted myself from disclosing much of my knowledge in certain areas but have found that helping a collector privately, not on open media, is another way to share knowledge, yet keeping it sacred. My reason for saying this, is that books and other writings on specific subjects are not always available or within the individuals financial realm.

    To my chagrin and to that of others, I have also found that when it comes to Third Reich production of the many badges and other trappings that one can and should not say never to variations. Of course, this must be restraint and a bit of common sense before any conclusions are reached that an item is bogus.

  7. #6

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Further, if you have a fake tag in hand, as well as a real one for a direct comparison, the task is far less difficult than it seems in electric pictures.

    The fakes tags in use in SS caps have improved greatly because of our threads, but they are still deficient.

    Mollo published the late 1934 model of RZM tag for SS Dienstmuetzen in the late 1960s, taken from the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM. This species of tag has been faked ever since.

    This object I include here is authentic, but it has been faked for four decades, sometimes well and sometimes not.
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    damit, basta.

  8. #7

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Quote by Richard Kimmel View Post
    Friedrich

    I understand you position completely with regard to disclosing the tiny secrets of detection. I too have restricted myself from disclosing much of my knowledge in certain areas but have found that helping a collector privately, not on open media, is another way to share knowledge, yet keeping it sacred. My reason for saying this, is that books and other writings on specific subjects are not always available or within the individuals financial realm.

    To my chagrin and to that of others, I have also found that when it comes to Third Reich production of the many badges and other trappings that one can and should not say never to variations. Of course, this must be restraint and a bit of common sense before any conclusions are reached that an item is bogus.
    Thanks. As regards SS tags of various kinds, we have included most of the known ones here which some of us (such as we are...) agree to be real. Their dates of use as well as their range of uses in detail via circulars, directives, et cetera is guess work. The Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM actually include little on the SS, in contrast to SA, NSDAP PL et cetera. I assume that the the VA SS and the RZM gave out directives on tags, and, most important, these tags changed over time. The tags in use in 1935 differed from those of 1939, for instance. The fakers do not grasp these changes and they thereby make a number of mistakes, and it is these mistakes which I keep more or less to myself or share with a handful of others I trust. Otherwise, I am pretty promiscuous with knowledge at rock bottom prices.

    The works I cite are expensive and not easy to secure, or, in fact, are impossible to secure.

    You can send me a private message with critical content and information that should be protected from the prying eyes of the fakers and fraudsters, who profit far more from my work than do I.

    Happy new year in a world of fear and anxiety all around.
    damit, basta.

  9. #8

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    This is the great grand daddy of all fakes, a Breuer from the mid 1960s. It was copied from a real piece, but not very well. Today the fakes are far superior, of course. These were sewn into 1950s Bundesgrenzschutz jackets which were dyed black. I bought one of these in 1966/7....

    It was the start of something grand, to be sure.

    Dr. Breuer was a famous Munich eccentric, whose costume Fundus was a staple of the film industry around Oberbayern, but also the vector for many fakes of the era with a large US clientele of service members and tourists.
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    damit, basta.

  10. #9

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Friedrich

    I located this guide on ebay and would ask, how accurate do you feel it is?

    It seems a lot of sellers tout the presense of an RZM stamp on any German artifact that dates from 1923 to 1945 as a sure sign that the item they are selling is authentic. Worse is the number of buyers that feel that the only way to know if a Nazi relic is original is to look for the RZM code or logo. What is the RZM logo, and what does it signify? Is the presence of the RZM logo a guarantee of originality?

    First of all, you need to know what RZM stands for. It is the abbreviation for ReichZeugMeisterei, (National Equipment Quartermaster). The RZM was set up in 1934 to procure and distribute items to Party formations, and also approve chosen designs and to act as a quality control supervisor to ensure items manufactured for the Party met required specification and were standardized.

    When expressed in code format, the standard format was RZMBG/####/YY, which stands for RZM, followed by the Branch Code Letter (A=Equipment, B=Cotton Items, D=Uniforms, K=Clothing, L=Leather Items, M=Metal Items, and W = Woolen Items). G stands for the Group Code Number. This is followed by a slash, and then the manufacture's number, and then normally another slash and the last two digits of the year of manufacture. Now, to list all the combinations of Branch Code Letters and their associated Group Code Number is FAR beyond the scope of a basic guide, and literally runs into the several hundreds. Let us limit ourselves to a few of the most collector popular combinations in the M (Metal Items) Branch.M4 are Belt Buckles. M9 are Meeting Badges, popularily called tinnies. M11 are all Party Long Service Medals. And, of course, M7 are the ever-popular Political Daggers. So, how does the RZM code help authenticate an item? Look for errors! The first basic error would be any RZM code with a date code of 33 or less, or found on ANY object with a date prior to 1934 - remember, the RZM was set up in 1934! A real BIG example here is the Rohm-signed SA and SS Daggers. They were made in 1933! In fact, Rohm was quite dead before the RZM was even formed - SO - any Rohm-signature on an RZM coded blade is a FAKE! Second, look for incorrect Branch and Group codes for the object you are looking at. Daggers must not be anything other than M7, period. A dagger sporting an M9 RZM code is a fake.

    It is also important to know what the RZM logo lookes like, so take a look at it:

    Not a very complicaterd logo, is it? Yet, this simple logo is often a very basic clue to if an item is original, or fake. First of all, take a close look at the 'Z'. Notice it is not a normal typewritten 'Z' - there is a bar in the middle. This is a normal European style to ensure that the letter Z is not confused with the number 2. For collectors - beware RZM logos with the plain, unbarred 'Z'! While an unbarred 'Z' can be found very occassionally, and is associated with only a few manufacturers, FW Assmann for one example; more often than not, an unbarred 'Z' is a red flag. Also be wary of barred 'Z's' with a bar that is centered! If you look at the logo above, you will note that the bar is slightly offset towards the top arm of the 'Z'. Second, look at the inner circle, especially at 6 o'clock. Notice that space between the legs of the 'M'? Avoid RZM logos with the space between the legs of the 'M' filled in. Finally, notice that there should be an outer ring around the inner RZM-ring.

    The final clues is to know what you should find, or better yet, NOT find the RZM logos or codes on. You will NEVER find an RZM code or logo on ANYTHING that you use the terms 'Army', 'Navy', or 'Air Force' to describe. The armed forces had their own procurement and quality control organizations (WaffenAmt, for example) that was set up long before the RZM ever came into existance. Any military medal, badge, uniform or accessory with an RZM tag or logo is a fake, DOUBLE PERIOD.

    A legitimate question you may have is 'What about items made for the Waffen-SS? Are they RZM marked, or not - like items made for the rest of the German Whermacht?' The answer is both, Yes and No. The Waffen (Armed)-SS was the arms-bearing branch of the Allgemeine (General)-SS. With its nebulous beginnings in the late 1930's, all equipment manufactured for the Waffen-SS was under RZM scrutiny, just like equipment manufactured for the Allgemeine-SS. In fact, unless you are an expert, it may be very difficult at first to determine if certian items such as ammo pouches or backpacks from the early period were made for the Waffen-SS or Allgemeine-SS, as they were similarily stamped. This was all well and good while the Waffen-SS was a small and Germanic unit utilizing equipment manufactured in the Reich proper. But as WWII progressed, and Waffen-SS recruitment expanded to include individuals from areas outside the Reich proper, who by all Nazi definations, were not Germanic, and were utilizing locally made equipment, RZM control became unfeasable. The result was that the Waffen-SS set up a quality control board that was largely based on the Army's WaffenAmt in 1943. So, Waffen-SS equipment made from 1936-1943 is RZM marked. Waffen-SS equipment made from 1943-1945 are not RZM marked. With this knowledge, if you do your research to know when specific Waffen-SS units were raised, you will know if they can, or cannot have equipment sporting RZM logos, stamps, or tags.

    The photo/illustration is the one being referred in the context above.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  11. #10

    Default Re: SS RZM Tags

    Thanks for the above. I will fix some of the errors here (and there are many...) for you in a while, and maybe some of my colleagues will help.

    You do us a service with your query, but it also shows how balkanized and fundamentally chaotic is the new age digitalized Third Reich, versus how we old f@rts approach the thing.

    Of course, the English language sources do a poor job at getting at the truth, hence I have no right to be peevish.

    Nor have I ever written this all down in a coherent way so someone at the start of their quest can make sense of it. These 2800 posts of mine are hardly coherent, really.

    Also, I am in the midst of learning far more about the RZM than at any time in my peculiar life due to the deus ex machina of Uniformenmarkt, which had something of merit on the RZM in almost each edition from 1934 until the bitter end.
    damit, basta.

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