SS Standarte ?

**HPL2008** · 07-22-2013, 08:04 PM

A very odd collar patch, isn't it?

Apart from the fact that the 21st Standarte was subordinate to Abschnitt III and later XVI (rather than XIII), placing an Abschnitt number before a Standarte number would be breaking with standard practice, wouldn't it?

Normally, in the SS (as in the German military) unit numbers with slashes between them identify the units by ascending organizational levels. For example 1/I/31 means 1. Sturm/I. Sturmbann/31. Standarte; III/12 means III. Sturmbann/12. Standarte etc.

Surely, that can't be the case here, as the 21st Standarte had only five Sturmbanne and no Standarte ever had 13 of them?!

Perhaps of interest, here's the commander of the 21st's III. Sturmbann, Stubaf. Richardt; note the cuff title:

(Image from the Standarte's chronicle by Fritz Stark, see: Stark-Fritz-Die-21.-SS-Standarte : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive )

Anyway, I, for one, would love to see the whole tunic as well.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 07-22-2013 08:04 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**d'alquen** · 07-22-2013, 08:28 PM

Thank you HPL,
Those photographs are one of the most comprehensive views of an early SS unit available. I believe that the cuff title Richardt is wearing in the picture was a a mark of his rank as commander. I seem to remember it vaguely from a 1931 set of orders when the SS was going through its first big re-organisation.
d'Alquen

**Horst** · 07-22-2013, 09:05 PM

Once more thanks for all the information and comments - Heres the complete outfit rank tab has 2 pips with bar (Hauptscharfuhrer) & no cuff title.

Horst

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 07-22-2013, 09:52 PM

Can this be an SA patch for Berlin-B-burg added to this black uniform? On the other hand, there are circles within circles with Allgemeine SS insignia, even if this piece does poorly conform to the conventions we see on most uniforms. It took an eternity to decipher the roman numeral on the cuff title and the Sta. Nummer on the collar patch, which was entirely regulation, but unaccounted for in the secondary works.

The other issue is to look at the tunic for other clues, at it were.

Glad are we that such able figures as report in here add their wisdom to the struggle for the truth. Thanks to Mr. Horst for sharing his items with us.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 07-22-2013, 11:38 PM

This kind of thing flummoxed the luminaries when we all tumbled together at the start of the last decade. I have three uniforms with the Arabic Sta. number on the collar and the roman Sturmbann HQ number on the sleeve, but none of the secondary works make mention of this. Mr. d'Alquen was kind enough to show us the 1937 reform that accounts for this insignia.

**Horst** · 07-23-2013, 05:00 PM

Many thanks for all your input and interest especially to Mr.F-B for his candid insight and observations - I have had this complete uniform for a number of years and it has all the bells and whistles as it should have. Maybe one of these days as F-B states "the struggle for the truth " will prevail and the unit will be identified.

Horst

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 07-24-2013, 03:49 AM

Thanks for your thanks and much good fortune in your collecting.

**Arran** · 07-24-2013, 06:07 AM

Could we get a nice clear close-up of the numbered tab? I can see that its hand-embroidered, but I'd like to see exactly the material used. I would be surprised to see an unterlagen on something like this, but if there is one, it would be helpful to know...

**jHAM** · 07-24-2013, 07:26 AM

I think F-B is on the right track. The format of the kragenspiegel makes me believe that it is an SA example. In the thousands of period photos I have looked at I have never seen such a tab on an SS uniform. That and the fact that the numbering does not match any logical SS organization. However I could be wrong. There is much I have not seen. I would like to hear what Mr. Coleman has to say about this tab. Thanks.

**Larry C** · 07-24-2013, 12:26 PM

In respect to JHAMs reply...although i myself have no knowledge of SS uniforms except what I have gained so much from this forum...is it possible if this is an SA tab,, could this SS officer been attached to the SA in some function still wearing the black uniform? I know there are so many anomalies that still need to be brought into light as I have witnessed myself on this particular forum..which even today after 77 yrs or so new truths are coming to light........ Again I know nothing about SS uniforms..and their myriad of branches..so my comments should be respected that of a novice! This topic is very interesting. Regards Larry