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unidentified SS patch

Article about: hi I just bought this for 100\\$ at a local antique store (the same one where in the past i have bought an iron cross second class which i think went to te same guy as this, a war merit third

  1. #21

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Quote by Thanatos View Post
    Hi gents
    Just a question
    Would a trades tab be worn by an officer as opposed to a NCO?

    Cheers
    Dave
    I think that if you qualified in the trade then you would have been able to retain the award regardless of rank and a lot of these guys wore all of the awards that they had, no matter what.

    Pics are still bad but I now think that the badge is good as it seems to have all of the correct detail.

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  3. #22

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    I was under the impression officers wore cyphers on their shoulder boards to designate trade or technical/medical qualifications.But could be incorrect on that.
    Cheers fella's
    Dave

  4. #23

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    I shot home for a quick look in my two Waffen SS insignia guides and they both identify this Trades tab as SS NCO Armourers trade badge.Worn on the lower left sleeve just above the cuff title if worn or 160mm from the cuff.There was no reference to an Officers version.
    Cheers
    Dave

  5. #24

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    There is an officers version, guess that book left it out. It's identical but with metal instead cloth. There is an example on oakleaf site.

  6. #25

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Quote by youthcollector1 View Post
    There is an officers version, guess that book left it out. It's identical but with metal instead cloth. There is an example on oakleaf site.
    i just saw that one and it looks more closer to mine as the 250$ one appeared to done with white stiching and th details wernt great whereas mine has good details (although not photographed well) and the stiching is the same silver color

  7. #26

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Gday gents,
    Sorry but i am still not convinced these were issued to Officers.The two SS reference guides,
    W. K. Hollzman "Manual of the Waffen SS" and R. Lumsden "The Waffen SS" both identify these as NCO insignia.Neither give any note or reference to Officer issues.
    B. I. Davis "Badges and Insignia of the Third Reich 1933-1945" also identifies this insignia as the previous two titles and also gives no note to an Officers issue.
    B. I. Davis "German Army Uniforms and Insignia 1933-1945" states the following,"trade and specialist badges were introduced at various times and were worn by all qualifying ranks below the rank of Leutnant".
    This statement relates to the Heer but due to the fact that SS specialists and tradesmen who were trained in Heer training establishments wore the Heer trade badge and not the SS equivalent eliminates the Officer issue to these men.Also SS trade schools and syllabus would have been modeled off the Heer example so ranking structure would be similar I would think just different rank titles.The SS Trades badges follow the Heer concept as well.
    Military tradesmen and specialists of senior NCO rank are usually the "foremen" of their organisations,lower middle management if you want,they are the hands on know how of the unit and indispensable. Officers usually fill administration rolls or perform university educated related tasks, engineers etc with-in these technical establishments and the vast majority most likely would never have attended these trade training schools nor recieved a qualification trade badge.
    These wire SS insignia I feel are related to these mentioned senior NCO's as most were retained in their NCO rolls due to their experience and expertise and these wire variants would have distinguished them from more junior NCO's.A status symbol similar to a say an Infantry Senior NCO wearing a Officers bullion adler on his old crusher or a similar insignia on his chest or arm.
    I am not doubting that these insignia are most likely good period SS Trade badges but the Officer issued concept is still a little debatable as I see it.
    It's an interesting subject and I hope someone else will chime in and add some more light onto the bullion variant badges origins.
    I named the references and authors so you can make you own judgements as to their credibility.
    Cheers
    Dave

  8. #27

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    I have to respectful disagree.

  9. #28
    ?

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Quote by Thanatos View Post
    Gday gents,
    Sorry but i am still not convinced these were issued to Officers.The two SS reference guides,
    W. K. Hollzman "Manual of the Waffen SS" and R. Lumsden "The Waffen SS" both identify these as NCO insignia.Neither give any note or reference to Officer issues.
    B. I. Davis "Badges and Insignia of the Third Reich 1933-1945" also identifies this insignia as the previous two titles and also gives no note to an Officers issue.
    B. I. Davis "German Army Uniforms and Insignia 1933-1945" states the following,"trade and specialist badges were introduced at various times and were worn by all qualifying ranks below the rank of Leutnant".
    This statement relates to the Heer but due to the fact that SS specialists and tradesmen who were trained in Heer training establishments wore the Heer trade badge and not the SS equivalent eliminates the Officer issue to these men.Also SS trade schools and syllabus would have been modeled off the Heer example so ranking structure would be similar I would think just different rank titles.The SS Trades badges follow the Heer concept as well.
    Military tradesmen and specialists of senior NCO rank are usually the "foremen" of their organisations,lower middle management if you want,they are the hands on know how of the unit and indispensable. Officers usually fill administration rolls or perform university educated related tasks, engineers etc with-in these technical establishments and the vast majority most likely would never have attended these trade training schools nor recieved a qualification trade badge.
    These wire SS insignia I feel are related to these mentioned senior NCO's as most were retained in their NCO rolls due to their experience and expertise and these wire variants would have distinguished them from more junior NCO's.A status symbol similar to a say an Infantry Senior NCO wearing a Officers bullion adler on his old crusher or a similar insignia on his chest or arm.
    I am not doubting that these insignia are most likely good period SS Trade badges but the Officer issued concept is still a little debatable as I see it.
    It's an interesting subject and I hope someone else will chime in and add some more light onto the bullion variant badges origins.
    I named the references and authors so you can make you own judgements as to their credibility.
    Cheers
    Dave
    Excellent points Dave , Armourer in any army would not be a trade carried out by anyone of Officer rank including the SS !!
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  10. #29

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Thanatos/Dave is correct in his assertion. In SS documents the badge is referred to as: "Waffenunterfuehrer - Gewehr u. l. MG. gekreuzt" and was to be worn by SS-Unterscharfuehrer to SS-Hauptscharfuehrer and embroidered in silver grey thread.
    Above this rank, SS-Untersturmfuehrer to SS-Obersturmfuehrer, the rank became: Waffentechnische Fuehrer and the armbadge or shoulderboard cypher was a Zahnrad (cog wheel) in aluminum thread designating a technical officer.
    After initially being trained by the Heer the SS set up their own school: Waffentechnischen Lehranstalt der SS, Muenchen Dachau.
    d'Alquen

  11. #30
    ?

    Default Re: unidentified SS patch

    Quote by youthcollector1 View Post
    I have to respectful disagree.
    Can you provide any period photos or other reference evidence to support your view i have never seen such a trade patch for Officers ??

    I beleive that the original badges were made in wire for wear on the Black uniform not for Officers but this was changed to white cotton thread once the Field grey uniform came into use !!
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

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