Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 53

Very Early Standartenfuhrer Collar Tabs

Article about: F-B's recent post of this portrait of Schreck shows what is probably the earliest form of tabs for Standartenfurer. They can be seen again in this portrait of Wilhelm Dreher. Both pics are c

  1. #41

    Default

    Thanks for the additional Schreck image. I had not seen that one....

    Such a treasure trove of things here!

    damit, basta.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    P
    Many
     

  3. #42

    Default

    Getting back to the very first post, although the tabs worn by Schreck are not the SA/Reichsbahn style it is worth pointing out that many SS officers did wear that more elongated oak leaf during that early 1933/34 period. In fact, Schreck wore the SA pattern on his overcoat as you can see here.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	schreck.jpg 
Views:	96 
Size:	54.6 KB 
ID:	877477  

  4. #43

    Default

    First, great photo with post 42: it is not that rare that also the SS did wear the form of leaf as done by the SA.

    With an order (OSAF-Erlass nr.4 - I/II a Nr. 7162/31 about Dienstgrad- und Dienststellungsverhältnisse)
    from November 28, 1931 a standardizing for the ranks for the SA as well as for the SS was a fact (a new
    organizational structure was announced. At every position the abbreviation SA was noted, simultaneously
    the abbreviation SS was noted. With the date May 26, 1933 this was extended and repeated (OSAF,
    Abt.I Nr, 1288/33
    ). As told before (see earlier post) the leaf form changed (anyway for the SA, but adapted
    by the SS) with the date July 31, 1933. Maybe the first form leaf was only in use for a short period of time,
    as was also the Reichsbahn leaf (surely within the SS).

    As promised some Hans Baur-photos (not Bauer - I myself also made that mistake) in chronoligical order:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baur 1 img155.jpg 
Views:	88 
Size:	81.8 KB 
ID:	877593 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baur 2 img154.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	153.1 KB 
ID:	877594

    Both photos with the official Lufthhansa-dress.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baur 3  img153.jpg 
Views:	29 
Size:	104.0 KB 
ID:	877595 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baur 4 img152.jpg 
Views:	67 
Size:	188.6 KB 
ID:	877596

    At left black SS-uniform; at right field-grey.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  5. #44
    ?

    Default

    Thanks all for this great discussion! The initial photo of Baur reminded me of these tabs I acquired some time ago with a small grouping of early DLV insignia. They exhibit unusual construction- no unterlagen, and one leaf is embroidered through the buckram whereas the other is not; the bullion is silver plated rather than aluminum. The shade of blue on which they are embroidered is identical to the blue of the other insignia they accompanied, which was of the "regulation" variety.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0864.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	225.8 KB 
ID:	878143Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0867.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	221.7 KB 
ID:	878141Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0865.jpg 
Views:	38 
Size:	215.1 KB 
ID:	878142Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0866.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	224.7 KB 
ID:	878140

  6. #45

    Default

    And the thread gets more interesting still! Could the unidentified collar patches above and/or the ones worn by Baur be short-lived insignia for DLV members of some kind of special status, perhaps of honorary [Ehrenführer] rank? (Complete speculation, of course.)

  7. #46

    Default

    HPL2008: maybe we are on the right track. I had not taken a look for honorary persons.
    What I found is not like Baur, but it starts getting even more interesting.

    In the uniform-regulation for the DLV from October 4, 1935 there is something written
    about "Ehrenkommodore", which were honorary persons from the "Deutsche Luftfahrt",
    to which Bauer may have belonged (I have no proof of that). It is said collar-patch as
    Luftsport-Gruppenführer, however with two acorns at the oak-leaf.

    The Luftsport-Gruppenführer rank was described as: in the middle a winged embroidered
    propellor. The oak-leaf was in the lower corner. The drawings however do not include this
    rank.


    Maybe a person as Bauer did wear a ranking device, which was taken-over from his rank of
    SS-Standartenführer and nobody had any objections, due to the fact Bauer was Hitler's personal
    pilot. Maybe we will find out one day!

    It is a pity we do not see his shoulder-strap well, or his arm (as there would have been an
    aluminum small cord for a honorary person) with the already shown photograph. But alas,
    Baur does not have acorns! I am convinced he had a "status apart" and such differences
    may not ever have been stated in any regulation!! They were just "granted"!

    Name:  dlv.jpg
Views: 249
Size:  26.0 KB
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  8. #47

    Default

    I have continued to look through photographs of this era for other examples of this insignia and found Baur was not alone in wearing oak leaves on his collar. This photograph at a Richtofen anniversary event shows a two leaf device being worn. This would certainly seem to preclude the collar patch being a personal affectation of Baur's and suggest there was some form of high ranking system.
    Incidentally, Michael Miller, ( a first class researcher), gives Baur's entry to the DLV as 1933 as a Fliegerstaffelfuehrer.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dlv.jpg 
Views:	48 
Size:	119.6 KB 
ID:	878559  

  9. #48

    Default

    Thanks d'Alquen. It is getting intricate without any doubt.

    The photo you show is in my opinion Friedrich Christiansen, the later Korpsführer for the NSFK.
    I can't see the patches well, but it must be two oak-leaves, which must be a sort of provisional
    system, which was not included in any of the known uniform-regulations. According to the official
    regulations he should have worn two oakleaves (each on one side) with in between it some wings.
    Three as I thought he was Fliegerkommodore.
    I have not ever seen this provisional system covered. But it all can have to do with the creation of the
    Luftministerium in the course of spring 1933 (letter from May 10, 1933 as Nr. 1007/33)
    and the "secret" preparation for the later Luftwaffe.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img170.jpg 
Views:	122 
Size:	233.2 KB 
ID:	878571

    About Bauer: he could be a Fliegerstaffelführer as a function, but as a rank this did not
    exist (it anyway is not mentioned in any regulation). Neither within the Deutsche Luftfahrt,
    nor DLV.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DL-2 img639 - kopie.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	51.5 KB 
ID:	878570  
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #49

    Default

    Wim,
    I still think the patch shows two leaves as in an SS-Oberfuehrer patch. I have added increased contrast to the photograph and I believe it shows that the leaves are not surrounding wings.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dlv2.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	64.0 KB 
ID:	878572  

  11. #50

    Default

    Yes, I had seen this and as mentioned in my earlier post it must be something
    provisional. Anyway such was not mentioned in official, specific regulations from
    1933/1934. What Baur and Christiansen do wear might be a remnant from the
    Fliegerstürme der SA and SS, which were incorporated within the DLV with
    September 1933.
    In regulations lower ranks had to wear the propellor with wing and a number;
    higher ranked persons will have worn what was according regulation and rank
    and so a Standartenführer did wear the oak-leaf as and Oberführer two oak-leaves
    (as Baur and Christiansen). This information one can find in NSDAP Aufbau und
    Abzeichen
    from 1933. See difference between 1933 and 1934.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img171.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	35.6 KB 
ID:	878824 Name:  img172.jpg
Views: 239
Size:  37.5 KB 1934
    1933

    In "Uniformfibel" from Knötel (from December 1933) the system included was
    as I showed before (post 48). In the earliest stage of building up an organization, they
    may have avoided it looked too much for an airforce, as this was still forbidden!

    Maybe one day we come close to a solution?
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-04-2015 at 11:42 AM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Early Signals Collar Tabs?

    In Nationale Volksarmee
    05-16-2015, 01:35 PM
  2. Are these the early SA collar tabs?

    In Non-Combat Uniforms and related insignia of the Third Reich
    12-17-2011, 04:55 PM
  3. SA Standartenfuhrer collar tabs

    In Non-Combat Uniforms and related insignia of the Third Reich
    11-07-2011, 09:40 PM
  4. Standartenfuhrer collar tabs

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    07-14-2009, 09:33 PM
  5. standartenfuhrer collar tabs

    In Technical/Design - Questions, How-to, & Advice
    07-14-2009, 09:19 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •