Thanks for the additional Schreck image. I had not seen that one....
Such a treasure trove of things here!
Thanks for the additional Schreck image. I had not seen that one....
Such a treasure trove of things here!
Getting back to the very first post, although the tabs worn by Schreck are not the SA/Reichsbahn style it is worth pointing out that many SS officers did wear that more elongated oak leaf during that early 1933/34 period. In fact, Schreck wore the SA pattern on his overcoat as you can see here.
First, great photo with post 42: it is not that rare that also the SS did wear the form of leaf as done by the SA.
With an order (OSAF-Erlass nr.4 - I/II a Nr. 7162/31 about Dienstgrad- und Dienststellungsverhältnisse)
from November 28, 1931 a standardizing for the ranks for the SA as well as for the SS was a fact (a new
organizational structure was announced. At every position the abbreviation SA was noted, simultaneously
the abbreviation SS was noted. With the date May 26, 1933 this was extended and repeated (OSAF,
Abt.I Nr, 1288/33). As told before (see earlier post) the leaf form changed (anyway for the SA, but adapted
by the SS) with the date July 31, 1933. Maybe the first form leaf was only in use for a short period of time,
as was also the Reichsbahn leaf (surely within the SS).
As promised some Hans Baur-photos (not Bauer - I myself also made that mistake) in chronoligical order:
Both photos with the official Lufthhansa-dress.
At left black SS-uniform; at right field-grey.
Thanks all for this great discussion! The initial photo of Baur reminded me of these tabs I acquired some time ago with a small grouping of early DLV insignia. They exhibit unusual construction- no unterlagen, and one leaf is embroidered through the buckram whereas the other is not; the bullion is silver plated rather than aluminum. The shade of blue on which they are embroidered is identical to the blue of the other insignia they accompanied, which was of the "regulation" variety.
And the thread gets more interesting still! Could the unidentified collar patches above and/or the ones worn by Baur be short-lived insignia for DLV members of some kind of special status, perhaps of honorary [Ehrenführer] rank? (Complete speculation, of course.)
HPL2008: maybe we are on the right track. I had not taken a look for honorary persons.
What I found is not like Baur, but it starts getting even more interesting.
In the uniform-regulation for the DLV from October 4, 1935 there is something written
about "Ehrenkommodore", which were honorary persons from the "Deutsche Luftfahrt",
to which Bauer may have belonged (I have no proof of that). It is said collar-patch as
Luftsport-Gruppenführer, however with two acorns at the oak-leaf.
The Luftsport-Gruppenführer rank was described as: in the middle a winged embroidered
propellor. The oak-leaf was in the lower corner. The drawings however do not include this
rank.
Maybe a person as Bauer did wear a ranking device, which was taken-over from his rank of
SS-Standartenführer and nobody had any objections, due to the fact Bauer was Hitler's personal
pilot. Maybe we will find out one day!
It is a pity we do not see his shoulder-strap well, or his arm (as there would have been an
aluminum small cord for a honorary person) with the already shown photograph. But alas,
Baur does not have acorns! I am convinced he had a "status apart" and such differences
may not ever have been stated in any regulation!! They were just "granted"!
I have continued to look through photographs of this era for other examples of this insignia and found Baur was not alone in wearing oak leaves on his collar. This photograph at a Richtofen anniversary event shows a two leaf device being worn. This would certainly seem to preclude the collar patch being a personal affectation of Baur's and suggest there was some form of high ranking system.
Incidentally, Michael Miller, ( a first class researcher), gives Baur's entry to the DLV as 1933 as a Fliegerstaffelfuehrer.
Thanks d'Alquen. It is getting intricate without any doubt.
The photo you show is in my opinion Friedrich Christiansen, the later Korpsführer for the NSFK.
I can't see the patches well, but it must be two oak-leaves, which must be a sort of provisional
system, which was not included in any of the known uniform-regulations. According to the official
regulations he should have worn two oakleaves (each on one side) with in between it some wings.
Three as I thought he was Fliegerkommodore.
I have not ever seen this provisional system covered. But it all can have to do with the creation of the
Luftministerium in the course of spring 1933 (letter from May 10, 1933 as Nr. 1007/33)
and the "secret" preparation for the later Luftwaffe.
About Bauer: he could be a Fliegerstaffelführer as a function, but as a rank this did not
exist (it anyway is not mentioned in any regulation). Neither within the Deutsche Luftfahrt,
nor DLV.
Wim,
I still think the patch shows two leaves as in an SS-Oberfuehrer patch. I have added increased contrast to the photograph and I believe it shows that the leaves are not surrounding wings.
Yes, I had seen this and as mentioned in my earlier post it must be something
provisional. Anyway such was not mentioned in official, specific regulations from
1933/1934. What Baur and Christiansen do wear might be a remnant from the
Fliegerstürme der SA and SS, which were incorporated within the DLV with
September 1933.
In regulations lower ranks had to wear the propellor with wing and a number;
higher ranked persons will have worn what was according regulation and rank
and so a Standartenführer did wear the oak-leaf as and Oberführer two oak-leaves
(as Baur and Christiansen). This information one can find in NSDAP Aufbau und
Abzeichen from 1933. See difference between 1933 and 1934.
1934
1933
In "Uniformfibel" from Knötel (from December 1933) the system included was
as I showed before (post 48). In the earliest stage of building up an organization, they
may have avoided it looked too much for an airforce, as this was still forbidden!
Maybe one day we come close to a solution?
Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 09-04-2015 at 10:42 AM.
Similar Threads
Posting Permissions
.
Bookmarks