I have only brought one helmet from John, but will echo what others have said in that I found him helpful and easy to do business with and was very happy with the helmet. However, the helmet you posted does show a duff decal so It would be good to hear from John's point of view. (I suspect the large amount of money involved is the major issue here).
These are my images of the fake SS helmet. Thanks
In addition to the bad decal...This is a 1939 made M35. Somebody tossed in a late war pigskin liner that is such a poor fit, doubt very much it was installed wartime. Even taking into account the prospect of it being a re-issue, the entire inside is unbalanced & not convincing. Liner band is warped in a few areas. It has been replaced post war IMO. Just for interest...can you read the liner band date ? Hate to sound harsh...but the entire helmet is a mess.
Think this dealers mistake was passed on to you.
Rule of thumb...when it comes to M35 re-issues...always start on the inside. That's the key to decipher an original.
D.
To go a bit further here because IMO...an extremely important topic to discuss. Many of us may go thru this ourselves one day. Ask this dealer what can convince him this helmet is bad & you insist on a refund. Letters, COA's, ? Find out. Maybe something can be done
D
There's often two sides to a story and hopefully John will give his. There may well be correspondence between John and Carl that we are not aware of.
However it does raise some important questions with regard the ethical and legal liability position in a case like this. Can a dealer contract himself out of consumer protection law? I would think a lawyer would say he can't. So note the curious alleged statements in the email Carl says he received from John;
"I do guarantee every item that I sell to be original to the period..." "...as three months down the line I will not have funds to reimburse you..."
"This hobby is based on opinions and put 4 people in a room with one item you will get 5 opinions..."
These statements seem to offer a guarantee of authenticity, but advise not to expect a refund if dissatisfied later, and the idea that authenticity is only an opinion that cannot be proved. I think that is faulty thinking in logic and law (in fact I haven't seen anyone defend the helmet as authentic SS). What good is a dealer's "guarantee" if there is no ability to return the item if it is found to be not what it was suppose to be? The guarantee is useless. But many countries do have consumer protection laws that would probably cover this type of situation.
But even if they did not, there is at the least an ethical responsibility to "do the right thing" when confronted with evidence that something you sold was fake. Even if not legally required, it certainly is very good business practice to do it as it enhances reputation. Dodging ethical responsibility always ruins reputation and ultimately business.
Well said Anderson. The thing many do not understand...anybody can be a dealer. I could start a website next month...that makes me a trusted authority ? A dealer is just a guy either taking in a few bucks as a part time hobby...or a select few that actually make a living from it. If one is unethical...eventually word will get out & the business whether it is part time or a full time career will suffer. But "you gotta do the right thing" regardless of which you are.
D.
Here is the full email i received from John....i understood from this that the reason he would not be able to offer any refund 3 months down the line...as he would have spent the money.....no question of the helmet maybe being a fake????
From: john [mailto:john@3rdreichburiedtreasures.com]
Sent: 04 March 2008 19:20
To: Carl Dolan
Subject: RE: single decal ss helmet
Hi Carl
The offer seems fair to me, and I haven’t got an issue with what you proposed, however, I think that you should be aware of certain “conditions” I would have to impose, and I will give you valid reasons
Firstly I would only ask for a £100 deposit, and as I said, that would be non refundable, secondly, the time it will take to pay it off would be well over 3 months. What I cannot afford to do, and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from, is to hold it for over 3 months, and when its paid for, I send it off to you, and you decide that you don’t like it, for whatever reason, that then puts me in an awkward position, as I would have spent the money that comes in to re plenish stock. The pictures that I have taken of the helmet, are very high quality, and should alleviate any concerns over its originality. The picture, especially of the decal shows up any imperfections, that a loop would miss. So what I am saying basically is if you want this helmet, and reserve it through the shop, you will own it, as 3 months down the line I will not have the funds to reimburse you. Be sure that it is what you want, I don’t mind you “touting” the pictures to get opinions, as long as any opinions comes from a “knowledgeable” source, and not just a friend. This hobby of ours is based on opinions, and put 4 people in a room with one item, you will get 5 opinions.
If you still wish to proceed, please go through the shop, and reserve it. I know that the postage will be £9.70 next day delivery, I usually cut a deal on most items, but on this one, I won’t. I know its real, and I’ve had opinions from several Knowledgeable collectors, and dealers
All the best, and I hope you don’t think that I am being funny over this, I’m only a small dealer, not earning big bucks
John
www.3rdreichburiedtreasures.com
I would like to thank all members that have chosen to reply... all with very good points ... on a very difficult subject...Thank you Gents
I reached out to John about this as I thought it fair for him to put his side forward - he has some personal family issues at the moment which means he hasn't been able to look at this any further. I'm not saying that is an excuse or anything, just saying that it may take a bit of time for him to address this or make any comment. From what he told me, I can understand why his priorities are elsewhere at the moment.
Nick
Thanks for the extra pictures Carl. As David says we can now see how wrong this one is.
by Carl Dolan
I undesrstand what he is talking about here; cashflow, the bane of any but the largest compny let alone a one man band so to speak.
However, that is not your problem or concern. It is his responsibility to ensure he has the wherewithal to deal with contingency and this should not even be a factor in the transaction agreement.
One thing well illustrated from the transcript of the email is that he made an unequivocal statement that the piece is original. Obviously it is not but he may not have realised this at the time (goes to intention to mislead). Nevertheless he knows now and would appear to have realised this when he posted it here. So, if intent in the original transaction is accepted as absent (a subjective point in itself) there is still the question of reimbursement being due. Morally and for the sake of reputation I would say it is but I have to say I am unsure whether consumer protection legislation would support a claim in a matter concerning a retail purchase quite this old. The Small Claims Court may be a possible avenue of recourse given the documentary evidence of which you speak (the upper claim value there was £2000 but I don't know if it still is) but there is an inherent risk that even if you win you could still be out of pocket due to costs etc (the court won't automatically enforce any judgement in your favour). It will be interesting to see what comes of this and if now that the "cat is out of the bag" John chooses to be seen doing the right thing. Please let us know.
Regards
Mark
PS One other thing, I wasn't paying too much mind to helmet values eight years ago though I know what they are now but was £2000 a feasible figure for a genuine piece back then?
Last edited by Watchdog; 12-06-2018 at 06:39 PM.
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