Is this a KM decal? German wwii m-35 with zimmerit paste?

[relicz]

Here is a link to a thread from GHW started by Gulli in regards to Zimmerit being applied to helmets.
It's is worth a look at least

http://www.walhalla.se/topic/2751-zi...mmerit__st__40

Brad.

Thanks for the link Brad.

I posted that link way back in comment #26, I guess not everyone reads through all the thread content and speed reads a bit - I am guilty of it as well occasionally. I agree, Gulli did his homework and made his case very, very, well. That is why I posted it up. I miss Gulli!

[Scout]

Nothing against the Duck - I enjoy perusing the items - but no doubt Zimmerit sells helmets better than saying someone slapped sawdust on the lid. Though sawdust was present in Z too.

Furthere more, Ive no doubt that the term 'Zimmerit' has become a generic term to some for any old Z looking layer slapped on a tank or helmet thus legitimizing the use of the word 'Zimmerit' for any old layer (legitimate to some - not necceserily to me).

From WOT on Z:
40% Barium Sulphate: BaSO4
Melting point 1345 degrees Celcius (melting point of Iron is 1348 degrees Celcius)
Boiling point 1600 degrees C (decomposes)
Not a flammable material
Not water soluable
Refractive index 1.64
Main use is in paints and dyes
25% Polyvinyl Acetate: C4H6O2
Unbonded it is flammable at 104.4 degrees C but bonded values vary in line with the material
Main use is in adhesives and paints

15% Ochre pigment: such as Goethite (FeO(OH)) and Limonite (Iron 3 Oxide, Fe2O3) is basically Iron Oxide
Not a flammable material
Not water soluable
Main use is in paints and dyes

10% Zinc Sulphide: ZnS
Melting point: 1185 degrees Celcius (sublimates into a gas intead of a liquid)
Not water soluable
Not flammable
Used extensively in infra-red optical materials

10% Sawdust: Cellulose fibers
Flammable but once bonded will charr creating a thermal barrier. (this is why early fire-proof safes had a double
skinned steel wall containing sawdust inbetween and why wood has been used a thermal insulation on at least
one Chinese space reentry vehicle)

Blurb on Zimmerit from WOT - World of Tanks
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....-german-tanks/

[Sir Payne]

I'm glad you stand corrected with the zimmerit, now we gotta work on whats camo and what isn't On a serious note, I apologize for talking down to you.

I'm not the only one who considers this camo. Let me explain why it is. The helmet has been repainted in the field with a thick overpaint. The interior of the helmet has not been painted with the textured paint which is proof that it was not a factory job. Camo is not limited to color, camo also has to do with textures, hence the sawdust effect. All in order to hide the wearer from a sun glare, which would reflect off of the factory paint. This helmet was altered in the field to better hide the wearer from the site of the enemy, therefore it is classified as a camo.
Most dealers consider this a camo, most reference books consider this camo, and I would venture to say that most helmet collectors would as well.

[Scout]

I prefer 'glare reduction feature' instead of camo

[mclenrd]

Corey, you do make a good point but (there's always a but right?)

I've seen many field applied repainted helmets like this, not classified as camo. Just going off my nearly 30 years of experience. You know the paint textures changed as the war progressed from an early smooth apple green finish to a flat mat, gritty, feldgrau texture finish (minus the patina). The reason was to subdued , not blend (camo) the wearer from the site of the enemy.

Its the same reason why, per 1940 regulations, all helmets were supposed to have the tricolor decal removed (or covered) and again in 1942 the eagle decal removed or not added (some M42 SD helmets were issued till the end of the war however).

This is not a camo helmet. I once owned a fully complete, tan brush painted, sand applied DAK camo SD helmet. I was 16, purchased it for 175.00 at the MAX show in St Louis 1985/6 and the next day sold it for 325.00... that was a lot then. Bill Shea was there and showed it to him. He was very proud of me for turning a nice profit. I wish I kept it now though. I had another camo helmet.... it was an M40 and 3/4 was tiger striped camo, the rest very dark blueish grey (do the math) like the ones from Normandy... it had no leather but the felt and band were intact. Paid 40.00 for it and it was my very first German helmet. Wish I kept that too.

Respectfully
Matt

[Sir Payne]

Like relicz said earlier, every helmet should be judged individually. I can't answer your question and say a regulation decal removed/covered helmet would be considered camo because it is too general a question. When dealing with German helmets, generalizing does not work since every helmet is different. I would have to see the helmet in order to give an opinion on it. You said you have seen field applied repainted helmets not classified as camo. That is true, which supports the fact that helmets can not be generalized. Basically what I am saying is this, some field reissues would be considered camo, others would not. For example, take a double decal Heer M35 in pea green paint. The soldier has to repaint his M35 because of regulation, so he gives it a nice coat of grey paint. 70 years later a collector finds the helmet in a barn. He doesn't consider the helmet to be a camo. Now, lets go back and redo the scenario. This time the soldier, because of regulation, gives his M35 a nice coat of sand textured grey paint. 70 years later a collector finds the helmet in a barn. He considers it a camo since it is textured. The point is, it depends on the individual's own opinion, rather true or not. Maybe those who believe it is a camo are being too hasty by calling it a camo, but I think that those who say it is is not camo are subject to the same possibility. The only way to know for sure would be to ask the original soldier why he used that particular paint. He could say "for camo", but he could also say "because it was the only paint available." There is no way to know for sure the purpose of the paint on this helmet we are discussing. Conclusions are opinions.

Regards,
Corey

[mclenrd]

oops... edited^ post #55 while you were posting.

The point is, it depends on the individual's own opinion...

Really? FACTS outweigh opinion but as you wish. <shrug>

[Sir Payne]

Really? FACTS outweigh opinion but as you wish. <shrug>

I'm not talking about textured painted helmets in general, I'm talking about this particular helmet. Unless one has a time machine so they can ask the soldier the purpose of this textured paint, one can only speculate the purpose of it.

You may very well be correct and it may not factually be camo, but many major players in this hobby would look at this paint and say it was camo. Therefore, it would show up on their websites priced as such. That is the whole point I am trying to get across. Evidence is the ruptured duck helmet, which many of you do not think is camo. Nonetheless the ruptured duck helmet is priced and labeled as a camo.

Do you understand what I am saying at least? Even though you don't agree completely.

Regards,
Corey

[Scout]

Im not a fan of how this thread is going.

This can go on for ever with the same arguments being regurgitated, as we obviously have two different people arguing over the definiton of the word 'camo.'

Its a bit pointless.

I must admit, that I quite like the above argument for the use of 'subdued' versus 'camo.' To me, this helmet has a finish which will cut down on the glare comming from the metal of the lid with the sun blasting down on the helmet thus making it a subdued finish.

The argument will go on; an old field jacket in solid OD - what was the purpose and what is the definition.

Speaking of which:

...................The point is, it depends on the individual's own opinion, rather true or not.
...........................

Regards,
Corey

Ahhh no, not really. It depends of the use of the English language and the definition of 'camo.'

H
Camouflage comes from the French word 'camoufler' - to disguise.

Id venture to say, that most people perceive camo as being multi-coloured, but actually oth POVS can be argued via Websters, as there are loopholes.

But again, all a bit pointless.

Webster - the full Monty:


Definition of CAMOUFLAGE


1

: the disguising especially of military equipment or installations with paint, nets, or foliage; also: the disguise so applied


2

a: concealment by means of disguise

b: behavior or artifice designed to deceive or hide
— cam·ou·flag·ic adjective


See camouflage defined for English-language learners »


See camouflage defined for kids »


Examples of CAMOUFLAGE

The army tanks were painted green and brown for camouflage.
The rabbit's white fur acts as a camouflage in the snow.
Rabbits use their white fur as camouflage in the snow.
Her so-called charity work was a camouflage for her own self-interest.
His tough attitude served as camouflage.


Origin of CAMOUFLAGE

French, from camoufler to disguise
First Known Use: 1917


Related to CAMOUFLAGE





Synonyms: disguise, costume, guise



[+]more

Other Military Terms

bivouac, logistics, petard, salient, sally, supernumerary, tactical


Rhymes with CAMOUFLAGE

Sanandaj


2camouflage
verb
camouflagedcamouflag·ing


Definition of CAMOUFLAGE

transitive verb


: to conceal or disguise by camouflage

intransitive verb


: to practice camouflage

— cam·ou·flage·able adjective


See camouflage defined for English-language learners »


Examples of CAMOUFLAGE

It was impossible to camouflage the facts.
<camouflaged the military camp as a native village>


First Known Use of CAMOUFLAGE

1917


Related to CAMOUFLAGE





Synonyms: disguise, cloak, dress up, mask

Antonyms: unmask





[+]more

Other Military Terms

bivouac, logistics, petard, salient, sally, supernumerary, tactical


3camouflage
adjective

Definition of CAMOUFLAGE


: made in colors or patterns typical of camouflage <a camouflage jacket>


First Known Use of CAMOUFLAGE

1942


Other Military Terms

bivouac, logistics, petard, salient, sally, supernumerary, tactical


camouflage
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)



Art and practice of concealment and visual deception in war. Its goal is to prevent enemy observation of installations, personnel, equipment, and activities. Camouflage came into wide use in World War I in response to air warfare. Aerial reconnaissance (and later aerial bombardment) required concealment of troops and equipment. By World War II, long-range bombing threatened warring countries in their entirety, and almost everything of military significance was hidden to some degree, using mottled, dull-coloured paint patterns (green, gray, or brown), cloth garnishing, netting, and natural foliage. Dummies and decoys, including fake vehicles and airfields, tricked enemy planes into bombing harmless targets. It remained an important technique after World War II, used with notable success by communist guerrilla units in the Vietnam War.

---------------------------

NB
Webster uses the example of a rabbits white fur in the snow. Im pretty sure they refer to the snowshoe hare (Lepus americanus), as that is almost uniformly white.

[davejb]

According to the definition of camouflage it is a set of methods designed to make animals, objects etc, BLEND in with their surroundings or make the item RESEMBLE something else, if a helmet is painted a desert yellow and sand added when your in the desert, that is blending in with the environment, a helmet painted in say a three colour scheme is designed to break up the general outline of the helmet and resemble something else, either foilage or the surroundings, if a helmet is painted a dark grey and sand added and a decal left in place, what environment is it blending in with, i think the only reason for this type of application is solely to reduce glare and thats why helmets were later issued with a textured finish. If you think about it the word camouflage is all too often used out of context