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M42- Camo.

Article about: by RH1941 Harry I dont get it . Its a forum I thought you could show what ever you wanted on a forum. Or did I miss the section where you must meet some pompous standards to post your helmet

  1. #21
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Hi Gaz If you like the helmet then thats all that matters. I have seen lots of dealers selling worst crap as the real thing for big bucks. It is what it is a filler piece.
    Gary

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  3. #22

    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by RH1941 View Post
    Hi Gaz If you like the helmet then thats all that matters. I have seen lots of dealers selling worst crap as the real thing for big bucks. It is what it is a filler piece.
    Gary
    Nice to see a reply from someone with no hang-ups about this kind of thing. Lets make one thing clear though. I would NEVER contemplate stripping a wartime shell of any original finish to 'refurbish' it. Anything I may choose to work on has got to have little or nothing going for it. I may also add that Gaz did a very commendable restoration job on an M1 lid. and all he got for that was praise. There must be something special about german lids that I don't know about.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Harry I dont get it . Its a forum I thought you could show what ever you wanted on a forum. Or did I miss the section where you must meet some pompous standards to post your helmet. Gary

  5. #24
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by gaz232sqn View Post
    Hi.

    OK,an interesting point, all be it debatable and therefore slightly confusing, am I to understand that if the shell, in it's unpainted, and rusty state,is a war relic?

    Where as if hypothetically, someone after the war paints the shell,and fits a re-pro liner,as the original was so corroded,that it could not be displayed,as a piece of used equipment,it is therefore a fake ,and by that definition not a genuine a war relic,in anyway shape or form.

    If I use the analogy, of a 1940's Chevrolet, which has been repainted,to it's original condition,on the basis of a photo,as the "painter" had never had the opportunity,to see the original during the era that the car was in use,would that make it a fake?

    I would appreciate some clarification on this matter.
    Having experience in both the car market and the militaria market I can unequivocally say they are different and an analogy is difficult to bring to bear using these 2 examples using helmets and other "hard" objects however tunics are often restored and a similar analogy can be made for them I think.

    Collector vehicles are worth far more in an original untouched state as is militaria.

    However a fully restored car, using all original parts can still fetch a hefty price tag, although that has come down since the big crash of 08/09. Militaria that is fully restored does not command even close to what untouched militaria does simply because of the fact that historical value of the item is lessened or lost altogether.

    Cars are wearable mechanical creatures in constant use, militaria generally consists of helmets, tunics, daggers, awards and such, are not.

    A "fake" car would be a kit car or a car Frankenstiened together from other vehicles like chassis, wheels, engine etc.

    An example of this would be the 47 Willys Jeep I owned. I installed Ford wheels, a completely aftermarket chassis, a Chevy V6 engine, etc. The only thing that was 47 Willys about it was the body parts. This meant the vehicle was worth the sum of the parts, where a fully original restored WJ would be worth far in excess of this and an untouched drivable roadworthy insurable original, name your 6 figure price.

    A real fake would be a Schwimwagen (sp?) that a GHW forum member built, from scratch from a 70s era VW Beetle!

    Cheers
    Doug

  6. #25
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by RH1941 View Post
    Harry I dont get it . Its a forum I thought you could show what ever you wanted on a forum. Or did I miss the section where you must meet some pompous standards to post your helmet. Gary

    Gary with all due respect maybe you did.

    Collector's Community- Restoration & Refurbishing at War relics forum

    The section we are in is called German Militaria 1933-45 Steel Helmets.

    Harry the Mole is giving restoration tips. Unless the casual reader of this forum section has powers of mental telepathy and know Gaz has restored this helmet, it appeared to be a thread on the question of originality, not how to best restore the helmet.

    I think there are some overly sensitive people out there...

  7. #26
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by HARRY THE MOLE View Post
    Nice to see a reply from someone with no hang-ups about this kind of thing. Lets make one thing clear though. I would NEVER contemplate stripping a wartime shell of any original finish to 'refurbish' it. Anything I may choose to work on has got to have little or nothing going for it. I may also add that Gaz did a very commendable restoration job on an M1 lid. and all he got for that was praise. There must be something special about german lids that I don't know about.
    No "hang-ups"??? C'mon Harry. Lets begin to get just a little real here shall we.

    Here is a fully restored Normandy camo shell, by a well known restorer who posts his work for identification purposes because he knows it may be resold at some point by the collector looking for that cheap "filler" aka fake (lets call it what it is) or the unscrupulous reenactor who decides to make a few bucks off his hobby.

    You can find his helmets being sold every so often on ebay as originals. So German, American, Roman, anything restored should be marked as such and when posted, identified as such and databased if at all possible. How exactly is that then, a "hang-up"? Adding a missing chinstrap, replacing missing leather, fine - declare it when posting or being sold.

    The whimsical attitude you express shows no respect to the collectors who value originality and to those who try to maintain a positive custodianship for the next generation of collectors. New collectors out there are being regularly robbed of their hard earned money and leaving the hobby due in part to the laissez-fair comments guys like you express whilst you seem to take pleasure in constantly taking runs at those who would defend untouched original examples place in the collecting world over restorations and reproductions.

    Finally as for what is special about a German helmet. Well why dont we start with price. The average M1 helmet sells for what, $250-350? Camo German helmets sell for 10 times that with ease, double decal Heer for 15-20 times that, Fallschirmjager and SS helmets can fetch 25-30 times that.

    You may try to muddy the waters with "whats wrong with repros" and while they may have a place, lets simply try to identify them as such and at the same time try to respect the fact that some guys are not lily white and will take whatever opportunity to rob a collector who just wants that 1 piece of what he thinks is real history on his shelf, and instead winds up with a "filler" piece that might as well be made in China and bought from Wal-Mart for $24.99.

    Cheers,
    Doug

    PS glad to see you have some ethics Harry and wont remove factory paint. What do you do with your restorations then, and do you use original decals when restoring?

    PPS - May we see some of your restorations, always love to see examples of what guys are making up.
    Last edited by DougB; 06-08-2010 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #27

    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by RH1941 View Post
    Harry I dont get it . Its a forum I thought you could show what ever you wanted on a forum. Or did I miss the section where you must meet some pompous standards to post your helmet. Gary
    I think one of the requirements of a forum is that you must post in the correct section. Posting a shell painted in 2010 doesn't qualify as a WW artefact. I know I will get the 'but the shell is real' thrown at me but this isn't a kid's playground is it ?

    Either you are collectors or you are restorers (or collector restorers) there's a world of difference.

    I'll leave it up to this forum's administration as to how they want to moderate this section but they painted it in as being for helmets between 1933 - 1945.
    Real and restored helmets don't mesh well on one forum.

    To each his own but don't complain in every topic that helmets are too expensive (visit the shoelaces forum then) , don't say that all dealers sell crap and that you cannot find a decent helmet.

    If I sum up all the above then I see somebody who lacks the skills and the will to seek out and collect original pieces.

    I can only hope that new collectors with an interest in helmets don't fall prey to your pessimism , collecting original German helmets is a fantastic hobby , there are plenty of original helmets out there. Some starting at 700$ and less.

    I also don't understand why you'd need filler if you are so interested in real historical artefacts. I don't need a double decal SS filler , will probably never own one but having one with fake decals and paint sitting next to my other pristine helmets will make my collection look like a joke.

    And that's it.
    Like I said in a previous post , I'm here to maintain the equilibrium.


    And I see my friend Doug helps me tilt the balance even further ;-)

  9. #28

    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    I agree with Doug and frank on this , restorations have their place and no doubt its quite a good feeling to restore an unwanted paintless shell into a nice looking copy of an origional lid but at the end of the day thats all it will ever be a copy , i collect genuine helmets not for how pretty they look but because its an artefact from a period in history that interests me , restorations should be in a seperate forum , i do own a copy ss cap and uniform but thats for fancy dress or chasing the girlfriend around the bedroom in not as a filler , rgds Dave

  10. #29
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    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    Quote by sscrooge View Post
    ... i do own a copy ss cap and uniform but thats for fancy dress or chasing the girlfriend around the bedroom in not as a filler , rgds Dave
    Dave, you told me you had stopped that nonsense...

  11. #30

    Default Re: M42- Camo.

    I agree with Dave and Frank on this also. If you want to mess around with a helmet, buy a repro from ebay and paint that. All that happens when you 'restore' a genuine shell is that it is ruined.I would rather stare at my untouched, rusted out relics that coat them in polyfiller and crap paint.. What is being done here is not what I call restoration. Restoration to me is fitting a genuine period chinstrap and liner and not touching the outer shell or painting it or whatever. This is now a repro helmet ,not a restored one. The historical value of this helmet has been painted over!!

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