Re: M42- Camo.
DougB I would like to thank you . I hate to say it but I have never looked into that link. and I agree that would be a good place to post above stated helmet.
Schwerpunkt I dont know if that whole post was directed to me but if it was .
1. I did not say that all dealers sell crap and that I cannot find a decent helmet.I said I have seen lots of dealers selling crap and that goes for more then just helmets.
2. You said If I sum up all the above then I see somebody who lacks the skills and the will to seek out and collect original pieces.
For my collection I only have period items and if I find out something is not it goes in the trash or I give it to my brothers girlfriend son I dont sell it . If you are saying I lack the skills and the will to seek out and collect original pieces. all I can say is you do not know me .
One last thing I collect WWII items for the History I does not matter to me if it cost$1.00 or $1,000. I have 2 dogtags one from each of my grandfathers I would never sell or trade even for a double decal SS helmet. Gary
06-08-2010 02:18 PM
Re: M42- Camo.
I am not sure but I think the conversation has grown several heads here, and really is a good discussion if we can keep the dogs on the leash. It is always healthy to probe our hobby from time to time.
1, What constitutes a conservation, restoration, refurbishment or reproduction?
2, Does a restored, refurbished, or reproduction item retain historical value?
3, Should items be left in a neutral state when found?
1 - Conservation is defined as the preservation or restoration from loss, damage, or neglect. Collectors however view it quite differently than a museum. A museum's role is not necessarily to show authentic items but as many a museum curator has told me when I ask about reproduction (fake) items being displayed, the showcasing and interpretation of some material aspect of the period. Ergo, collections cannot be compared with museums, they are in actuality, quite different. Collectors collect the authentic, museums invest viewers with a sense of the period, and authentic items are not needed for this, but are preferred when available.
Preserving items in our collections that can be ravaged from the local environment is quite another thing. However unless you live underwater, there is no need to do anything to a helmet. Put it on the shelf and your done, and buy a good humidifier/dehumidifier if neeeded.
Refurbishing in the collectors sense would consist of repairing a broken chinstrap or liner tongue.
Restoring in the same sense would be to add a missing chinstrap or missing leather to an original liner band, removing non-period paint from the shell, adding a complete liner band - so long as it is disclosed.
Reproducing is adding paint of any kind or adding decals. Adding filler to repair holes, etc. Removing a bad liner and adding a good one. Changing out a chinstrap from as found condition. Now it is simply making things up.
Taking a ground found helmet like Dave aka scroooges example, that cleaning work is commonly done to ground found relics and I dont think collectors have a problem with it. The helmet leading this thread off had paint added to it, taking it into the reproduction realm however, that is quite different than cleaning a ground found relic.
2 -- Does an item hold historical value? Well depends on how you look at it. A painted, redecaled helmet, no. A ground found relic cleaned, holes filled and touched up with a liner added, no.
A cleaned relic, certainly. A stunning M35 double decal helmet, with replaced leather as was missing, yes but slightly watered down. A helmet with an original chinstrap but post war repaired. Yes.
Bottom line there are degrees to which refurbishment or repair is accepted.
3 -- Should an item be left "as is" when found. This is much too general a question and to make the indictment as Harry the Mole has cynically stated, is folly. Each collector has a comfort zone but there are acceptable limits within the community I believe.
However there is no need to treat liners or metal on a helmet in reasonable condition. To clean a relic, well fair enough.
I guess the bottom line for me is the motivation for wanting a German helmet. If you want just a period example and do not care about history or value, you will place just about anything on the shelf, it doesnt matter. You have a German helmet. If you are collecting for historical purposes you will probably want something completely untouched.
Re: M42- Camo.
Hi Doug, that is very nicely put and I must agree with all the points you have made.
Re: M42- Camo.
Perhaps we can now draw a line under this sorry tale.
In my original post, I said that I was after,comments.
I believe that I have partially achieved,what I set out to achieve, which was.
(A) To start a Healthy debate ( partially achieved)
(B) To try and see,if a photo of a lid,can be spotted for what it is.(Very much achieved)
(C) To prove to myself alone,that Nazi lids are a very contentious subject,which attracts some very passionate people.( Very,very much achieved.)
(D) To clarify,what constitutes, a Fake, or repro.( Achieved,thanks to Doug)
(E) To see what level of support there is on this forum,for new collectors. ( Achieved to a degree, although I feel this support is sadly lacking in some areas.)
(F) And finally, and most importantly,to demonstrate,that not only are these lids,of huge historical importance, they are clearly not to be messed with,as this just agitates collectors.
But I think that it is important to be consciously aware of some very simple facts,which are,....... it's my lid.....I paid for it....with my hard earned cash,and if i want to paint it "Bright pink,with girly flowers" I will. ( But obviously I would not post it here)
After all this is my right. And let's not forget that, Our forefathers, gave up their lives, to fight against the threat, of a Fascist regime, enabling us, to have freedom of speech and expression, and to live in a world that was free of oppression.I am not suggesting that this forum or it's members are oppressive, but I too have, issues that I feel fairly passionate about.And I quite like the idea of freedom of speech and expression!
Fact-My grandfather did not spent years of his miserable life,sat in a Nazi concentration camp, for me to " Bough down" to mere peer pressure, but I will continue to be civil and polite,too other's who let their passions, spill over into unsupportive attitudes.
Yes,I should have posted this "worthless" piece of metal,in the correct area,and yes I should made myself clearer in, my original post, but that's where points A-F are very salient, in my opinion.
I apologise, to others who feel,that I may have gone, off topic.
I also apologise to others, who may uncomfortable,about my ramblings, but I am grateful to the members,who have been constructive,and have given me a clear defination of what,this lid is,in the collecting world.
To the supportive members,keep up the hard work,I assure you ,it is very much appreciated.
To the less supportive members,cast your mind back to when, you first started collecting, now try imagine that you need some advice and guidance. What sort of advice would you want?
Re: M42- Camo.
by Isle of Wighter
I agree that everyone is entitled to their opions, and I do apprciate the help that I have recieved from more knowledgable collectors.
I appreciate that perhaps I have commited, a cardinal sin,by painting my lid, but IMHO, it looks a damn sight better than it did,when I took delivery of it, let me explain....it was painted with very high gloss,dark blue, car spray.
I initially started too carefully remove the paint, with the intention of revealing some remnants, of a decal or two,as I discovered the original paint had been removed, long before it came into my possesion,and then it was sat on shelf,gathering dust for a long time,and quite frankly ,I considered selling it/trading it for something else, it was in no way a war relic in it's previous state.
I bought a repro liner,and a chinstrap,and one Saturday afternoon,decided too paint it up,and make it more "presentable" for use in my personal collection, it sits alongside one of my favourite M1's, in juxtapose...personally I think it looks cool, and visitors and friends have commented on, my WW2 display.
I am not new too collecting,and actually share my knowledge with new comers,on another forum, as quite frankly that's what i enjoy.
But my point is, I have looked at other people's posts,of their latest find,which clearly they are chuffed too bit's with, and could leave some fairly negative feedback,but I don't feel this is constructive, there is a fine line between tip toeing and being honest ...and being unsupportive.
Which was the idea behind my post to try and show this "Fine line"
Very recently I had the misfortune to read, a very long drawn out thread, where a guy posted his german lid,and one particular individual ,who claimed in his title,to be an "Expert",was rude ,unhelpful,and down right negative...I felt kind of sorry for the poor guy, who had posted his "pride and joy".
And sorry I do not have a picture of my lid in it's "original state" to post!
I strongly believe Harry will repond to your query too.
Re: M42- Camo.
Certainly it is your right to do with as you please with the helmet, it is after all, yours.
You must admit we have played a long game of connect the dots to which we finally have completed the picture with your last post.
Now for the first time we know that;
1- you are a novice German helmet collector looking for some advice
2- that the helmet in question was a postwar painted stripped shell
3- that you were trying to find the "fine line" between restoring or reproduction.
From the very first post it appeared to me and others, that it was a helmet you were thinking of buying or had recently purchased.
Even the term "camo effect" was an assumption you made that all readers knew that meant you painted it yourself. I had no clue "camo effect" meant self painted. I read hundreds of posts daily by people with various commands of the English language, what is written and what is implied and what the intentions of the post are, can be many different things and really get twisted out of context in a hurry.
Just a friendly suggestion, the thread could have avoided a lot of confusion if it were framed like this;
"Hi guys, I am new to helmets, and this is a helmet that I recieved as a postwar painted and stripped shell. I have added a liner and chinstrap and painted this camo effect. It is a filler helmet which was virtually worthless in the state I recieved it in and is just to fill a hole on my shelf. What do you guys think of the job I did, and do you have any suggestions?
Furthermore, what is the fine line between restoring and reproducing. Would this be considered a fake?"
Clarity is absolutely critical in communicating via fora such as this and better, more qualified opinions and discussion will result if one is not making assumptions about what the other is trying to say.
Also, as a new collector you have recieved some insight and advice into the unique world of German helmet collecting and its limits and taboo's that collectors place on these valued items.
Now that we know the entire story, your helmet had no historical value whatsoever when you recieved it. It had been so messed with that it was simply, a German helmet. So like the last paragraph of the last post I made, if thats what you wanted that is what you got, fair enough.
But we did not know any of this enroute to this point. And trust me, the German helmet world is filled with fakers and profiteers, guys who view this hobby as just way to make a fast buck and will prostitute these artifacts at the drop of a hat, enhance them, alter them, whatever it takes to make a bigger buck so vigilance and a healthy skepticism is needed as well as a thick skin, no matter how experienced one is, we always have to be prepared to be off base or wrong - and deal with it ever so humbly.
Anyway, in closing you have unintentionally opened up a very good conversation for new and old collectors alike to discuss and thanks for that! German helmet collecting is a great hobby that is very passionate and has tremendous historical value and educational opportunities, thanks for posting up your "camo effect" helmet!
Re: M42- Camo.
A very interesting thread, showing the passion of those who 'collect' these items and mostly without insults, well done and also the framework by which it operates.
Re: M42- Camo.
This debate has been absolutely fantastic. And Doug, I find your comments very admirable. Just to clear up a few things though... I do NOT and never have advised anyone to tamper or strip an original helmet, I wouldn't even consider removing rivets and liners to find a 'nice' wartime date or maker - as some collectors do. I do believe in conserving for future generations. I do believe in treating liners to try and get some life back into them, although I accept that others find this a somehow bad thing to do. I do believe in putting old shells to some use - even if it's only to house trailing geraniums.
I also believe it has nothing to do with anyone-else what others choose to collect, and if they wish to own re-worked helmets who has the right to tell them not to do so? I have recently been agonising on whether to replace the liner-band in my transitional M17, the one in it has snapped in a couple of places (probably due to idiots pulling it back to find a maker or date). In the end I decided to leave alone, as at least the liner-band is original to the helmet. Collectors always face this dilemma at times, sometimes we make the right choice - and other times we regret our actions. It also may be of a great help if some of the contributors took the trouble to read properly what people have to say on here instead of just assuming they have said it. The fact this is now the 50th posting on this subject proves the worth of stirring up a bit of controversy. I will now gracefully retire to my workshop, dig out my grinder, arc-welder, modern paints, repro bits and trash another bit of history and sell it for thousands to some unsuspecting mug who want's a triple decalled helmet with retractable nasal bar and anything else I can think to put on it.