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M45 Helmets

Article about: Left: B/II prototype. To have been the new 'stahlhelm 45' but never put into mass production. It has the M44 liner system. Right: M45-A. Also called 'ventless M42'. It has the M31 liner syst

  1. #71
    ?

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Here is something interesting I have found in regard to the Baer dome being flatter than the one posted.

    If you look carefully on p.397 of Baer at the B/II, the dome area of both photos is blackend out.

    But if you look at the domes of Models B (p.396) and C (p.398) those domes are not blackened out.

    What I'm getting at, is during the B/II photo's journey from negative (1944) to this book (1985) the photos may have been cut out and pasted on another backing at some point for printing. If the photos did not fit well into the alloted space (high dome) ,

    the photo finisher may have used scissors to cut the domes of both photos down a tad to fit, causing an originally higher dome image to appear with a slightly flatter dome.

    The black-out of the domes may have then been added to cover the photo finisher's flaws of some sort.

    Model C (p.398) has a high dome.


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  3. #72
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    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Once again, sorry for all.
    I really am a choleric man, I have trouble to express my views objectively, I am always angry.
    I am not the right man for discussions.
    That's why I don't post in forums usually, that's why I shouldn't read this thread any longer.

    But if there is someone out there who is faking a unique prototype, so that no one can prove that he is wrong, if this person makes this pot the Holy Grail, and poses with it, and distorts history, then that isn't objectively for me, too.
    I'm getting angry again, sorry.

    But if a fake turns to original, maybe still existant originals turn to forgeries.

    How would you react, if you know deep in your heart, something is wrong, but you can't to prove that fact?

    There is more than an indication that this helmet is wrong, but because it is unique, and because the owner doesn't show all details, nobody can prove it.

    That's what I hate and why I attack Brian.

    Brian HAS made made similar forgeries, he Has documented the making of few shells and liners at the WAF, he would be ABLE to fake a helmet like this one. That's a proven fact and nobody can deny.

    And he IS a bully, if someone does not like his stuff, he's twisting the facts from books, they are wrong again, and everything turns out as he needs it.

    For example the Baer photos:
    The one or two photos which don't match with his prototype must be distorted, while 16/17 other photos in this context show exactly what one would expect.

    Another example:
    One time he says, his prototype has the angles from the description, 55° and 60° another time he says, his B/II is different to a DDR M56. But the M56 has this angles too, exactly.
    He doesn't comment this fact.

    When he realizes that he will lose the ground under his feet, he is offended, runs away and hides. So he did it in the WAF, so he is doing here.

    Why does he ask for deleting his membership?
    Yes, I've attacked him below the beltline, but I'm only ONE man.
    Millions of people will know his helmets, thousands of forum-members don't attack him, at last hundreds will love his items, there's no reason to go - only one:
    He is wounded in his vanity.

    THIS is childish behaviour!!!

    Now I will really try to stop writing in this thread, because it ends always the same way. Sorry for all.

  4. #73

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    i think the best reason is lock the thread,as theres proof its not going to stop brian will be on soon with his veiw again and yes its tit for tat childish behaviour.
    end it all as i am sure most are sick!

  5. #74

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Guys,

    I was enjoying this thread before all of the unpleasantness that found its way into the discussion. We need to take a breath here and regroup. While don't know either of the waring parties, I would ask both to simply state fact without insults.

    The staff here takes great pride in the overall quiet nature of the forum compared to other sites, that is by no accident. It is because of great members and the work of the staff to keep things pleasant here. Whether the thread is closed or not will be up to the section Mod and/or the Admin.

    Maybe it is best for the two gentlemen to stop trying to convince the other that their view is right. I think the horse has been beaten to death now. IF...IF something were amiss on the helmet in question, sooner or later it will be known. Let's not forget that there are more important things in life to fight over...much more important things. No one needs to leave or stop posting, just read what you type carefully before you post the reply.
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    [CENTER][I][FONT=Georgia][COLOR=orange]Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?[/COLOR][/FONT]
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  6. #75
    winniler
    ?

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Quote by hawk82 View Post
    1. Cut the helmet along this line - the visor gets shorter
    2. Heat the helmet and press in this area - the helmet gets wider, the top goes up
    3. Add new rivet holes and close the old ones, give it a new paint - what do you have?


    Brian, why do you never post the daylight pictures?
    -Let me answer: Because the real repro paint doesn´t fool anyone.
    Good morning gentlemen, as an armorer i feel compelled to chime in.

    i have some experience in reproducing medieval helmets by raising and sinking, plus a lot of swordsmithing experience.

    To anneal a modern helmet is possible, I'm not sure is if it is possible to change its shape as extensively as you imply.

    To stamp a newly made BII by means of modern stamping techniques would be possibly much more feasible, given the costs of a collectable BII it would possibly be convenient to stamp some new ones let's say in Czech republic or better, Russia or latvia.

    A manual reworking of a modern manganese steel helmet woul likely leave some signs, as long as it wasn't made by a real pro.

    AFAIK very few people can manage armouring techniques properly, for sure a faker couldn't leave raising hammer marks inside an helmet supposed to be made in the twentieth century.

    Your theory of compressing and stretching the helmet (best in a semi-hot state and after a long anenaling at this point) would need a very skilled craftsman, moreover i'm not sure a model 56 helmet could be perfectly stretched into the shape of a B2 as you say.

    The cutting and resoldering of the top would really be not practically feasible to me, the soldering line shoud be flattened by grinding to the original thickness of the helm, plus the area should be reworked on a steel ball tor egain a round shape.

  7. #76

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    sounds like this poster has the technical background and expertise to enlighten us.
    cheers,

    Jager

  8. #77
    winniler
    ?

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Quote by Jager1945 View Post
    sounds like this poster has the technical background and expertise to enlighten us.
    cheers,

    Jager
    There is a very active armouring community at The Armour Archive, see forum , armour, design and construction.

    just look at how difficult it is to turn something flat into an helm.

    Armorers work with plain carbon steel: alloys like modern steel helmet alloys are not easily workable to say the least.

    The "cutting ad sewing" of the top proposed by the gentleman above would require a careful grinding of the inside, which would be very difficult to achieve with power tools because of the narrow dome.

    If the Ice's helmet is fake most likely it is newly stamped, or it is a NVA helmet of the last type juts slightly modified (pressuring the sides slightly outwards could possibly be achieved by a couple smart smiths, not by hammering but by using wooden wedges on the dull red hot helmet, after a very, very long annealing cycle).

    EDITED

    It seems he doesn't imply cutting the top but the brim. easier for sure, no soldering. At this point I would make some experiments.

    What remains uneasy is the closing of the rivet's holes, a good analysis of the place they might have been could reveal a soldering patch.

    Also the alloy of the model 56 was different from that of ww2 helmets so a metallographic analysis (feasible at the Royal Armouries lab in England) could really solve the issue. It woudl require only cleaning of a very small patch of rusted steel. Pls see "specialist enquiries here"

  9. #78

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Quote by Brian View Post
    Gary, the capture paper is the standard US army style dated I believe in June of 1945. It only mentions 1 German helmet, not specifically a prototype. I'm not going to post a photo as I'm not sure if the still living vet wants his name on the net, but I will say that there are some higher ranking officers mentioned.

    My my Hawk, you have done your homework, but have come to the wrong conclusions.

    "Every" B/II auction documented ?? Sez you! I'm afraid you and many others missed this one!

    Thats just fine if you don't like the story or the helmet. Remember, I'm not here to convince people. Individuals make their own decisions.

    But I am interested to try and follow your logic about why, in your opinion, this one is supposedly not good. Since you have apparently never seen an original in hand, how would you know what a 'real one' looks like?

    How would a 'real B/II' be so much different in your mind than this one?

    You have a clear bias against this helmet. With regards to the liner, paint, shell, you don't like anything about it, but you haven't mentioned anything conclusive that would demonstrate that this is not an authenic B/II prototype.
    I've just been reading through this thread as it is very interesting, but I was wondering about the capture paper that came with the helmet, you could easily photograph it and use MS Paint to block out the name of the veteran etc, this isusually is usally done by ebay sellers who deal in WW2 german militaria to cover what are seen as offensive symbols such as stuff related to the Nazi party etc.

    Thanks

    Danny

  10. #79
    ?

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    WOW that was some thread,interesting,debated,heated and mediated,but one thing is for sure,fake or real, its an ugly looking so and so

  11. #80
    winniler
    ?

    Default Re: M45 Helmets

    Quote by GasMasksUK View Post
    I've just been reading through this thread as it is very interesting, but I was wondering about the capture paper that came with the helmet, you could easily photograph it and use MS Paint to block out the name of the veteran etc, this isusually is usally done by ebay sellers who deal in WW2 german militaria to cover what are seen as offensive symbols such as stuff related to the Nazi party etc.

    Thanks

    Danny
    This controversy has been going on for a lot of time also elsewhere, I followed it with interest, in my opinion the helmet is genuine (liner is "right", with the appropriate late war paint I saw on some helmets found in Italy). Also Mr. Ice would be stupid if he was the "author" of this fake, after having spent much time openly recreating one.

    An examination by the above laboratory could really put the world end to this story. If the metal composition were proven to be different from that of NVA helmets we would almost be ok, also paint could be examined with appropriate gear.

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