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Rad m-40

Article about: by francis006 simply because the decal was on bad helmets (paint and/or application ) ! (BTW The other very scare "variant" with the swas in a round shield also is bad ) This opini

  1. #31

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    Quote by francis006 View Post
    simply because the decal was on bad helmets (paint and/or application ) ! (BTW The other very scare "variant" with the swas in a round shield also is bad )
    This opinion also is shared by some "advanced" US helmets collectors you surely know Bob and has been expressed in few threads posted by them on another forum in the passing years .
    My point is, what proof exists of this being a bogus insignia? If the decal is bogus, I would expect to see a plethera of them on the collecting market. We are aware that some of the decals of other branches were once considered reproduction by some "experts" only later to be proven wrong. Opinions are just what the word means. Opinions can be correct or incorrect. I certainly doubt that any faker only made a few decals. All helmet collectors know that variations exist from one decal maker to another. If this decal is a reproduction, how many have been seen, when did they appear and why would anyone repaint a perfectly good 100% present single decal M-40 Heer helmet to make a RAD helmet that few would want to buy? Do you believe that only one manufacturer made decals for the RAD? If that can be established, then I would concur with your opinion.



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  3. #32

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    Quote by helmet2id View Post
    ...No doubt there are unknown manufacturers, such as the manufacturer of the SS runic decals on the Chris Jones double runic helmet pictured in the Beaver/Hicks book. Knowlege of the history behind the piece, experience, and a good first hand examination are therefore the best ways to satisfy one of the authenticity of the piece... Cheers, Jim Geanuracos
    Jim, with SS decals the variants are noted and well documented and all can be accounted almost for certain as foriegn not German manufacture with the exception of the Fat Runes which is quite possibly the first style of ET produced decal directed towards the LAH (3 of the 5 known M35 SS DD with Fat Runes are identical in lot number, and the other 2 are not far off and 1 of these is known to have come from the LAH, as well as the photographic evidence of the early LAH Regiment being the only SS unit to be wearing the Fat Runes)

    The Austrian style Pocher rune is identified, the Scandinavian Pocher variant is on the Jones double runic and my Schalburg Korps blackie, and the suspected foriegn and unidentified variant on pg 182 of SS Helmets is really the only one that cannot be accurately pinned down but perhaps Dutch origin.

    My point is we have to be very careful with calling something a variant for obvious reasons, but variants do exist.

    With this RAD decal Bob shared with us I am not familiar with this style of RAD decal. It clearly is not "textbook" and I share the same opinion and reasoning as Francis when viewed on the surface.

    That being said, Bob can take the helmet back to the late fifties/early sixties before many of us were even a twinkle in our fathers eyes and he also holds this helmet in hand and is comfortable with the provenance. I think we have to take that into consideration, I am not sure they were faking RAD decals 15 years after the wars end and if so, was the quality of this type and where are the other fakes?

    I own a variant skull tab that if shown on its own would be surely considered postwar but considering the fact it is glued into an SS Totenkopf soldiers photo album and can be traced quite far back, I have no reason to doubt it. Anyone who has seen it in hand also has no doubts. This may also be the case with this RAD helmet.

    I also was fortunate to examine an SS helmet that a European collector sent to me for authentication that he considered a foriegn made variant, and under 400x magnification tool marks can clearly be seen to have aged the decal and paint as well as clear signs of workmanship and charachterizations of other postwar reproductions that date back 40 years.

    So I suppose while I sit up here on the fence , I can offer only that food for thought and would love to examine this in hand one day Bob.

    Thanks for sharing.

  4. #33

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    The fake decals available in the 50's and 60's were reminiscent of the type of decals that came with model airplanes. They stood out like a blinking light. I am not sure when quality attempts at making top notch fake decals began by I would think it was in the 1980's.


  5. #34

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    Hi Bob,

    I feel compelled to jump in here as I had an experience on another forum when I put a three-piece gladiator DD RAD, painted brown, up for sale. That helmet had been vetted on yet another forum and was determined to probably be original, based on a large number of very detailled photos, by several well-qualified helmet guys. The discussion went beyond the decals to include the paint and its characterisitics and I learned a good bit from it. Suffice it to say that a discussion was immediately started when the helmet went up for sale by some self-styled "experts" on that particular forum who loudly declared the decals were phony without any basis other than "fake", bad fake", etc. You know the drill. When I asked for the basis for their opinions and pointed out to them the lack of documentation and knowledge about RAD decal maufacture and distribution, they weren't having it, yet couldn't really explain to me the basis for their opinions other than vague generalities (wrong shape, lack of detail, etc.) It was a gruelling experience and got ugly before it was done. I was put on trial and asked to prove that it was original, even though I wasn't the one raising the questions. One individual actually declared that RAD wouldn't have used gladiator helmets, even though there is a period photo of a RAD member wearing one in the Anglia/Littlejohn Labor reference! Go figure!!!!

    I agree with you and believe that there were no manufacturing standards or bulk orders for RAD decals that would produce uniformity and don't for a minute think that this M-40 is anything other than original. IMHO, RAD decals were most likely locally manufactured by a number of different small shops, opening the door to minor differences in them. There is nothing to indicate they were ever produced in large numbers or on contract by the well-known decal manufacturers. There are no RAD regulations that specifiy manufacturing standards for helmet decals. In conclusion, I believe, as I pointed out to my challengers, you need to know something about the organization and its history if you want to collect the artifacts . . not just know about the artifacts themselves. Just my two cents . . thanks for listening!

    Bill B.

  6. #35

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    I must concur with you both Bill and Bob as you as well Doug for parts of your post. For one Bob has had this helmet for how long since the 60's? As Bob stated copying decals was not in detail or for the most part very crudely made. They absolutely looked like fakes.

    There will always be a manufacturer or er's that made the decal in question that we may never know which firm produced these since they were probably made in low numbers which makes our past time very interesting and intriguing. These types of decals as you have noticed stir up the pot of originality or fake.

    I for one totally understand the reasoning behind the nay sayers as there will always be nay responses but then again one must look at who has has made the thread and his experience in the field and i may possibly be wrong but i agree with Bob. Is there a nay sayer that is a total and undeniable expert in this field?

    rgds, Ty

  7. #36

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    When I had my first collection, I had a RAD gladiator helmet. It had the RAD unit number in Roman numerals stenciled on the interior neck piece. I believe it, along with many other helmets from my collection that was aquired in the late 50's thru the early 70's is in Baer's book. I know it is on page 53 of the early reference "Collectors Guide, German Relics, Supplement 2-Headgear" published by Stan Bozich in late 1968. Unfortunately, many new collectors listen to on line gurus who may or MAY NOT know what they are talking about. When it comes to decals manufactured for units such as the RAD, Teno, Red Cross, etc., who is to say how many companies may have made decals for these organizations. What number were they made in?
    I have had the good fortune to see three different models of a political leader helmet. A M-34 and a M-40, both of which were brought back by an American veteran. He picked them up with about 100 HJ schiffen, stamped AHS from an Adolf Hitler Schule. All of these items were veteran purchased by Ray Zyla of Mohak Arms back in the mid 1960's. The helmets were undoubtedly only worn by the school leaders. I have also seen a gladiator style helmet with a neck decal stating it was the property of Gau Sachsen. I owned the M-34 and own an example of the gladiator helmet. I know of three examples of the gladiator helmet, all marked with the Gau Sachsen decal and have never seen any other model helmet with the political leader decals. 99.99% of all helmet collectors have never seen this decal in hand, on line or in a reference book. By the logic used by some on this RAD decal, these are also fake as they have never seen a decal like this. There is not even an example in Baer's book.
    I must admit that I posted this helmet to spur the discussion we are now having. I believe that nothing but positive comments have come out of this discussion.
    By the way Bill B., I recall when you posted your helmet. If you recall, I was one of the few to give it a thumbs up. As collectors, we often forget a very important factor in the collecting of 3rd Reich collecting. The original owners of this material had no concern for a future collector market 70 years down the road. The object must be studied in total, not just by one aspect of it's characteristics.


  8. #37

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    Hi Bob,

    Yes, I now recall that you were one of the few who stood up for the helmet and myself during that acrimonious discussion. I appreciate it and hope that you elicit more comments and especially information with this thread.


  9. #38

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    The greatest feature of this forum is that the site owner has set a fixed agenda that allows spirited discussion without the personal insults. As moderators and members, we can discuss an item and leave the personal agenda behind.


  10. #39

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    I'm sorry but when I read the last threads , IMHO this topic slides a little ....
    I have no dog in the fight in Bill's WAF threads , I also don't like to see things become personal and post only to help or when something troubles me , good or bad . For info too , on all these forums , I've expressed many times very different opinions than "high end" collectors and dealers so I'm not a sheep
    It's why to be clear and for members to have all the story , as I participated to Bill's last WAF thread , I'll try to answer .
    So Bill for the 1rst topic about the sale , I read it later and IMHO and even if I recognize some answers weren't valid, members were right and a bad decal of the same family as yours was posted by Robb . A link to another forum where your helmet was discussed with more details as you asked also was posted . After if you don't see them , we can't add much and case closed ! here is the link Rad In The For Sale Section Discusson - Militaria Forums
    The 2nd thread should have been of my interest but I must say I posted very few because I saw fast this thread would become "boring" and as expected a fight between the 2 camps with the only issue being the intervention of a moderator again to close it ) The Controvversial and Troublesome RAD helmet Transfer - Militaria Forums
    IMHO all have been said about that decal in the 2 threads , photos posted clearly showed few good and bad ones ( even the other helmet in the link #27 you thought it was OK ).
    My opinion posted isn't based on what other collectors said before but on what I've seen and checked for years and for info , the first time I have been proposed this type of decal (on a M42) was 2 decades ago and the guys already had it in his collection for few years
    As I often hear in this type of discussion , the only "arguments" on your side were ;" it's not the same fake decal" , also "why not a variant or an unknown new type" . As I said , if you don't see the matching features with the bad decals , no problem and I won't loose my time trying to convince you
    for the rest , I'm pretty open minded but sorry, if you think like this , it's an open door to all types of fakes . They just have to produce a small amount of "new" types and to answer a question Bob asked , there indeed are small productions of fakes in the TR collection .
    After all these years of studying and buying (no Bob I'm not a new comer too) , you sadly have to be careful and stick to some rules (and even more with the asking prices now ). It's why I've come to a different approach and why I prefer to say "show me an original matching yours or , if it's a possible variant , at least show me the very same features that an original one has ( for decals depth , texture , printing etc ..) and for sure , not those of KNOWN FAKES !
    If the unknow type has these good features , then I agree we can talk about a possible variation , as I know for a Lw decal never shown anywhere before
    It's also why when they were discussed , I never dismissed the Strache, Peiniger , subdued lw eagle decals etc .. even if it's true that a good amount of them has been post war reapplied .

    That being said , Bill and Bob you surely are much better than me in RAD history as it's not my field of interest but when it come to decals , I have no problem .
    I also won't come back again on Bills thread , I said what I had to say to give the "other side" point of view in all honesty

    Last thing I would add because some asked for details , I'm sorry but for decals or others , I'm one of those who think it's not good to say too much . On forums , I always give some indications and after, each one has to do his home work .

    Take care

  11. #40

    Default Re: Rad m-40

    Thank you for your valued opinion. We can always agree to disagree. We likely will never have a definitive answer on many puzzlements in this hobby.


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