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Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

Article about: Well that's exactly what I though they were Joe, good description. I did like seeing the photo above of the beaded helmet in combat but without context it could be a late war thing or not ev

  1. #21

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    Well I guess my technical approach WAS boring as bat sh*t and given a wide berth - but while I may be on a learning curve with helmets, I have worked with metal for 30+ years and I hate to see / read improbable concepts in regard to it's use.

    The fact is, rolling a bead DOES strengthen metal ( thats why they are also called "stiffening ribs" ) You will see them on many flat panels to stiffen them ( look at the floor panels of your car to see what I mean )
    The thinner metal these helmets were made from would have less crush resistance than the thicker vanadium steel the combat ones were made from and the rib would restore some strength.
    ( you can see the heating and oil quenching process in the video - and ONLY a high carbon steel CAN be quenched - normal mild steel cannot be hardened as the carbon content is too low )

    I seriously believe there is NO logic that can stand up to scrutiny to prove a beaded lid was a reworked reject - rather, they were a PURPOSELY made style made of thinner metal and made strong by an additional process.
    Functional, not just decoration .... remember Teutonic efficiency? and given that ALL styles can be seen with defects and repairs lends more credence to the notion of separate production.

    There's me ranting again ... and now I will probably get chastened for rocking the boat ..... oh well, c'est la vie.
    Dan

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  3. #22
    4md
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    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    I will quote Ludwig Baer from The history of the German Steel Helmet

    " the beaded version of the m35,40 and 42 were issued to civillian groups.These failed to pass the stringent Wehrmacht acceptance testsfor ballistic integrity. These helmets were reworked by the addition of the enbossed horizontal bead so they could not be confused with satisfactory helmets.These substandard helmets were deemed to be ballistically sufficient for home front personnel.When such helmets are encountered the trained eye will readily spot a variety of surface flaws in the steel (scaling,reticulation,etc.)"

    As shown in the Utube manufacturing clip a helmet goes through many processes, stamping, heat treating, etc. There is a lot of time and energy expended to manufacture a helmet. I think that is probably why they didnt just melt the helmets down but instead beaded them for civillian use

    regards Paul

  4. #23

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    Hi Paul,

    When I was first collecting in the 1980s, the Baer book was the ONLY resource available but even he had to get his sources from somewhere and some others. German helmets.com say this about Baer's work " While possibly the best overall book on the subject, collectors should be careful to consider any publication the absolute authority on any subject matter. The errors in this book, although few, clearly make this point true."

    Let me say this, German combat helmets DO crack - from bullets, cold, compressive forces etc. - we've all seen them ... and this is because they are hardened. No disputes there. And hardened metal ( and I wont go into the Brinell or Rockwell scales of hardness ) cannot be cold worked without cracking.... and bead rolling is cold working.
    Notice how the heating / quenching was the LAST process before painting - you cant do a ballistics test before the helmet is hardened.

    People can accept the gospel according to Baer by all means, but you "canna change the laws of physics".

    Cheers, Dan

  5. #24

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    Quote by Danmark View Post
    Hi Paul,

    When I was first collecting in the 1980s, the Baer book was the ONLY resource available but even he had to get his sources from somewhere and some others. German helmets.com say this about Baer's work " While possibly the best overall book on the subject, collectors should be careful to consider any publication the absolute authority on any subject matter. The errors in this book, although few, clearly make this point true."

    Let me say this, German combat helmets DO crack - from bullets, cold, compressive forces etc. - we've all seen them ... and this is because they are hardened. No disputes there. And hardened metal ( and I wont go into the Brinell or Rockwell scales of hardness ) cannot be cold worked without cracking.... and bead rolling is cold working.
    Notice how the heating / quenching was the LAST process before painting - you cant do a ballistics test before the helmet is hardened.

    People can accept the gospel according to Baer by all means, but you "canna change the laws of physics".

    Cheers, Dan

    In my humble opinion, this is very well put.

  6. #25

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/steel-...aded-140996-2/

    An old discussion on the subject, you argue the point better than I did in this thread Dan, but I've come to agree with the 'reject' opinion. The lids may have been heated before the bead added to avoid hardening problems perhaps?

  7. #26
    4md
    4md is offline
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    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    yep there is no evidence the beads were cold rolled

  8. #27

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    And how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?? lol (if anyone remembers those commercials)

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    hello Gent's, this really is an interesting subject, even if i dont collect helmets. i have to agree with Dan on reworking hardend steel. but i'm wondering about the beaded luftschutz helmet. it was never intended as a combat helmet when made, especially the 3 piece luftschutz helmet. so i cant believe they have the bead as a sign of rejection. ( i'm talking strictly the luftschutz style helmet). but this is one of those opinions that can go on and on. the pictures on page one the morter crew, the guy on the left sure looks to have a beaded helmet to my eyes, and not a rubber band.
    andrew.
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  10. #29
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    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    I assume that the reason for the bead on the three piece gladiator is the fact that it was actually made up of three seperate pieces of metal and the two lower halves were spot welded to the upper dome which created a seam , the bead may have been added to protect that seam which would have been a weak spot, as for the two piece, this is really incorrect as the shell was actually created out of a whole piece of metal, in this respect i take the view that the bead was for two reasons, strength, and recognition, mind you ,no matter what reasons we put forward i daresay there are some very obscure actual reasons why they were created in the first place, but unless we could find a factory worker of the period who worked on helmets etc, there will always be a discussion on this subject

  11. #30

    Default Re: Types of beaded Luftschutz helmets??

    Hey guys,
    I agree that 70 years later we may never know the actual methods or rationale and we all have different points of view. Funnily enough this is a forum - and the Forum was the place in ancient cities where people stood up and debated / argued a point .......not much has changed, eh??

    KRADSPAM / 4MD - I agree that the ONLY way these could be reworked is if the metal was annealed ( softened ) or if as some have suggested, a sample quantity from a batch were hardened, ballistic tested ( failed ) and the balance of the batch ( not yet hardened ) were shunted off down the rework line. Maybe this is what happenned?

    Remember that the liner systems were quite different in these helmets as another method of distinguishing - not that a soldier would notice what we look out for in the heat of battle!

    Dan

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