Lets see your photos of Herm,Rath marked swords

[Swordfish]

The SS sigrune inspection stamp was not something that would be tossed around. LIkewise, it's exceptionally, and I mean exceptionally unlikely that it was inadvertantly applied by an employee of Rath dist. The company (dist or even a manufacturer for that matter) would have no reason to apply sigrune inspection stamp to an Army blade. That pattern blade IS limited to use on Heer sabers- not SS, not Police degens, not KM, not fliegerschwerts. Just wouldn't be used on another Wehrmacht service saber nor many of the civil service departments. Regulations were quite clear with regards to use of the sig. inspection stamp. So, putting money down that a bored Rath employee playing around with die sets IS a loosing bet. Placing a bet that this saber, with a Krebs Nr 3 hilt, is some sort of hidden, newly discovered, and ultra-rare SS sabers is likewise a loosing bet. Most collectors will look at the totality of a specified pieces' characteristics as well as attributes. After study and research, the astoot collector will allow the preponderance of evidence to shape his decision with regards to a pieces authenticity and the authenticity of any blade and hilt embellishments- especially those associated with the SS. So thinking of various possibilities, we need to ask which is more likely; a post-war humped up Heer sabel that someone added a few stampings on the blade to generate a little more interest and consequently a little more cash. The alternatives pre-supposes these runic marks as well as the Rath dist. stamping was done wartime for some unknown reason, which exhibits poor quality stampings (significant disparity in depth in the various Herm.Rath and Solingern characters) and an SS inspection stamp.. on............ an Army saber..a Krebs Nr.3 at that.

As far as blade, I am of the opinion it was a blank blade. What Solingen company manufactured it? Don't know. There's a chance that we could ascertain who manufactured the blade based on tang markings- however this would necessitate some degree of disassembly.......not advised. What IS known is that the entire hilt assembly is a Krebs proprietary design. No more, no less.

Fred did a good job scouring for information based on the photos- most noteworthy the phantom sigrune diamond stamping which was attempted on the ricasso, but didn't come to fruition probably because of human error- the person was unskilled with working on saber blades, stampings, and so on.

These are my feelings based off what I see. Truthfully, at the end of the day, it's a matter of comfort. If you the owner are happy with it, than that's all that matters and right on. As I said early in the discussion, i'm sure it makes a decent display piece, and certainly an interesting conversational piece. Resale is going to be tough, if sold as anything other than a Krebs number 3 Army officer/NCO saber. When collectors see ANY type of SS related markings on any edged weapon, it causes him to do a double take, if not a triple take. SS items are one of the heaviest reproduced items out there. Legitimate SS items bring in big $$, that's creates motive. A solid SS Honor Degen can bring in $5K-$7K and up, depending on it's attributes. Most collectors cast a doubting eye when an item pops up allegedly used used by the associated schutzstaffel- for good reson. Anything with sigrune bolts, death's head, hagal, double rune, and so forth are studies carefully- often being debunked in the process. Careful research must accompany any item popping up with any of the symbols remotely associated with the SS. When an item pops up with any runic symbols, collectors take it a step further and typically and discussion often ensues openly to ascertain if the said item is legitimately associated with the SS.

I belive the piece came off eBay in mid-2007. Is that correct? I'd be interested in knowing who the seller was- it might be a name that is familiar to alot of us...for malignant reasons.

t

[ncblksmth1]

You are the expert. I used a automotive sidegrinder to get rid of the Krebs markings. I then stamped the sword in the present location getting it upside down because I wanted to fake the SS runes and retire to an island in the carribean.

None of the above statement is true. I bought it from a local guy who dosent even have a computer. It came out of his dads closet and I have bought several other things from him. I saw a photo of him with the sword from early WWII. - He also had a photo of an early Aircraft Carrier- a flattop. Way cool - Anyway you may be right, however he figured the sword was US until I pointed the Swastika out. Now correct me if Im wrong but if you were unscrupulous and you wanted to make money on a sword would you not tell everyone including relatives that you had the real thing? That would eliminate some suspicion wouldn't it. In turn if the relatives believed it was real wouldnt they try to get good money for it? I did not pay out the nose for this sword. In fact I did not bargain with this guy.

If whoever struck the ss and herm rath was indeed trying to make some money on it why wouldnt he strike it in the usual manner so it could be read tip up instead of upside down (according to norms) thus making it easily seen as a fake according to you? I understand your points but somehow in my mind it doesent add up to what I physically am looking at and know to be true. I know skepticism is the best course in collecting but this may just be an anomolly.

The other board Wehrmacht Awards suggested I ask T Wittman about the sword. In your opinion is he knowledgable about these swords?

[Swordfish]

I respect Tom W's opinion. He's been in the business a long time and has seen alot over the years. I don't know if he'll get back to you though. There were some issues with people quoting dealers in recent times and as you can imagine, things were misquoted, taken out of context, and reflected poorly on the dealer. Tom W, Tom J, and a couple other guys are dealers first, and are careful with offering people opinions on pieces. They have more to loose than the average collector with regards to credibility. Even pieces that a dealer may say is good (pieces the dealer is trying thier best to sell-so they have a vested interest in the item), is often scrutinized and discussed. Even some of the "bigger name" dealers get stuck with bogus items they can't sell- and have been known to be less than honorable in thier efforts to dump the bogus item. For a controversial item without any documentation to be accepted as legitimate, it generally requires affirmative opinions from a variety of unvested persons.

We could speculate all day about how these marks came to be. In my opinion, i would never be comfortable with the markings.... the specter of fakes and frauds will always haunt this hobby- and for good reason. It's going to be very very difficult to convince most experienced saber collectors that the markings are legit. As such, selling the piece as anything other than an Army saber is going to be exceptionally difficult.

These days, any collectible purported to be an SS related item that does not conform to what we know always going to very very heavily scrutinized by the community. Because we're inundated by a plethora of bogus SS items that pop up daily, the burden of proof needed to convince the community that these never before seen items, and/or items that do not conform to standards and governemnt sanctioned regulations, will always be viewed skeptically, and for good reason. In the hobby, "newly discovered SS items" or "never before seen SS items" will ALWAYS be considered fake until until proven otherwise. The burden of proof includes period photos of the collectible, written regulations addressing the specific item, evidence of the items existence in period sales cataloges, or other accepted objective period documentation.

But it all goes full circle in the end. It's a matter of the owner being happy with the item, and the question of whether the owner will be able to sell the item as what it is purported to be. With respect to this particular saber with the proprietary Krebs hilt assembly, to ever be sold or accepted as a legitmate SS proofed sword, it is going to require some irrefutable documentation. Otherwise, it will always be a Krebs Nr 3 Heer officer/NCO saber with a humped up, bogus ricasso stamping. I've seen alot of items where a collector took a chance on a collectible, often spending big $$, and they find they are stuck with the item, and will never be able to recoup the $$ the invested. It's a case of collector comfort. The community, especially in this day and age of mass communication via the medium of the world wide web, has very high standards and expects a high burden of proof for authenticity. That's why some of these guys who expect $15,0000 for an item they bouth 15 years, cannot and never will be able to sell thier item. There's alot of angry collectors out there who got stuck with expensive, bogus items before the had the luxory of the internet. Me, i'm happy collecting what I collect and in knowing, all my items are 100% accepted, proven to exist period items. It's a ticky tacky hobby and rightfully so when one considers the $$ involved.

[Frogprince]

........... I bought it from a local guy who dosent even have a computer. It came out of his dads closet and I have bought several other things from him. I saw a photo of him with the sword from early WWII. ...........

An interesting statement, as Germany itself was not invaded until 1945. Can you post the photo?

Fakes come in many forms, from completely new creations, to just an added marking or two. In the long running “Hühnlein” NSKK honor dagger discussion there were some names involved that are very well known in the collecting community. With the testimony of finds by dealers and collectors of long standing that were reported as coming from veterans. Or from their families. Another reported as being relatively recently found supposedly from the war in an attic in Denmark, etc. etc.

Valued at the time in the tens and tens of thousands of dollars. My recollection is that they were most vigorously defended by the dealers and collectors who had them, or in the past had bought and sold them. And some others who may have derived some financial benefit at some point. Along with a few others who may have been onlookers, versus those buying/selling/trading.

My point? No amount of rationalization is going to erase the fact that a completely different set of dies was used to make the markings on this particular saber. With especially the top portion being on the amateurish side (IMO). And the Solingen portion not being much better. With at a minimum, also having an additional die strike at the bottom.

And it was the seemingly small details with the “Hühnlein” daggers that gave them away as being fakes (PW altered). But to each his own. And if you are happy with the sword - that is what counts. FP

[ncblksmth1]

Thanks Guys. I look forward to more interactions with you guys.

[rudedog]

I have a Herm Rath Police dregen with the ss runes stamped or engraved just below the manufacturers identification and enclosed in a diamond pattern. It was my fathers, (war souviner), along with an SA Dagger. The dregen appears to be a police dregen, (has the copper eagle and swastika on the handle), with what I suppose are ss markings on the blade. There are no markings on the hilt of Scabbard throat. My question is, does this increase the value of the dregen? Has anyone seen any other Herm Rath police swords with similar markings?

My next question is can anyone tell me what the inscription on the throat of the SA Dagger means??. The throat of the dagger scabbard is engraved,"F/teeue Dienste i. Anerkennung gew.v. Z.b.V. Sturm 14/17". The manufacturer of the dagger is Hammersfair with the swimmer logo. Does the engraved scabbard throat increase the value of the dagger? I just aquired these from my father who passed away. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks