Looking for some expertise on identifying this sword
Article about: Greetings, new here, so please forgive me if I'm ignorant on some things. I have a family photo from, I think, 1940 or 1941. My family was Estonian, but fled Soviet occupation of our homelan
Looking for some expertise on identifying this sword
Greetings,
new here, so please forgive me if I'm ignorant on some things.
I have a family photo from, I think, 1940 or 1941. My family was Estonian, but fled Soviet occupation of our homeland in 1940. Soon thereafter, my Great Grandfather (the man in the photo) joined the German army, largely because at that time if you were coming into Germany as an Estonian, you had better be helping out, and it was one way in which he could keep the family alive and prevent them from being sent to Stallin's camps in Siberia, as many of my other relatives were. Still, I find it curious that he would join them given how much he hated the Nazi party. I suppose he must have hated the Russians just as much.
Anyway, I used to have his shirt from the Estonian army, but I do not think this is an Estonian uniform. It looks to be a dress uniform of some sort. I have no idea what rank, though I do know for certain that he later became at least the rank equivalent to a Liutenant in the American forces- he was an officer. Evidently, he had some high level intel available to him, because he always knew when bombings were coming, and got the family out of the area just before they did - often the night before, except for one time when the family came out and my Grandmother's sister (on left) once described the pavement outside as having been melted to glass from the heat of the fire and the bombs. How he always seemed to know, we have never known. He was shot 7 times during the war (survived) though I do not see any medals here (perhaps because it was early on). He was a professor in Estonia and already had military experience, so I expect he rose through the ranks relatively easily once they went to Germany. I know he was NOT a member of the Nazi party - in fact, he refused and was to be shot for some reason, except he escaped the night before and went on foot over the mountains. I also find it curious that the Americans let him come over so easily after the war - perhaps because he was not German, or perhaps he, like a rather well known cousin of his, leaked information to British intelligence (this other relative was put to death by firing squad in 1941 in Tallinn, Estonia by the Russians for this).
On to the point - I do not know what this sword is. I sadly don't have it in my possession, either - I do not know if he willed it to someone in the family, otherwise I would have loved to have it.
If anyone knows what position he was in at this time (1940/41) based on the uniform, that would also be interesting to find out. That is all I know (other than that the guy he took orders from was an SS bastard who he disliked greatly). There is also another photo with a uniform I'm not sure about (this from a bit earlier, so I'm pretty sure Estonian), but I wondered if anyone recognized that hat.
Hello Estilatt ...Trondk has answered correctly on the type if sword putting him in the Police force...but for further research into the individual..you may want to post your researched info on this forum here
The uniform is a Polizei officer uniform. Looks like Leutnant.
Thank you, good sir
That means not SS, right? I saw a sword very similar to this one with the same hilt shape that had an SS on the handle, but I do not see that here. I know that many Estonians were drafted into the Estonian SS, but I dont think that he was.
Thanks much! I have done so. Curious that a non-aryan of mixed Eurasian heritage from Estonia could become a Polizei in the German army. I was under the impression that they had to be...you know...German citizens and Aryan for several generations back. I have the man's birth documents from Tartu, Estonia and with names like Tudaka in the family tree, you can see where they are lucky to be alive. Weird. Hilariously, his wife also had jewish heritage as well as west asian, greek, etc.
Thank you, good sir
That means not SS, right? I saw a sword very similar to this one with the same hilt shape that had an SS on the handle, but I do not see that here. I know that many Estonians were drafted into the Estonian SS, but I dont think that he was.
As far as i know this means he was not in the WSS.
If a police officer was first in WSS, then he would most likely have two "SS" symbols under his left upper pocket. Or a wss sword. I borrowed two quick photos from internet, here you can see a ss polizei tunic, you see your photo dont have these runes on the uniform.
And the other a photo of a polizei sword exactly like the one in your family photo.
An WSS sword would have "SS" on the grip.
The other photo is from a pre ww2 estonian army, the old hat insignias were also used by estonians in ww2 when fighting the bolsjeviks.
Note: If i am not right here in my information, then i must encourage members to say so- as most of you know i do not collect or study ordinary polizei. ( And i have zero books with me here at the moment)
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The germans had soldiers from many many nationalities fighting for them. Indians, Arabs, asians- the list goes on. The history is not as black and white they like to teach people in hollywood movies.
I include some quick photos so you can see for yourself how weird and interesting our history really is.
Sorry for the disorder of the photos, i tried to make look nice and easy for you to see, but the photos rearranged themselfs on their own.
That is definitely interesting! Grandmother had never told me she'd seen anything like that in Germany during the war - neither had Great Grandfather told us that! She did remember seeing the stars on people's arms as a girl and not knowing what they were for or why they were behind fences - in the eyes of a little girl, they were just people standing on the other side of a fence looking sad and she didn't understand why. People being put onto trains, and she wondered where they went - but the adults either did not know or would not say. You didn't dare ask too many questions, from what she told us. It was just the understanding that children at the time all know. Don't pry too much, that sort of thing, because people who did...tended not to be seen again.
Anyway, that's definitely unexpected - I hadn't known there were Asian and African people serving Hitler, but then, I suppose some of them didn't exactly have a choice or they viewed the Russians as even worse (not knowing, of course, what the Nazis were actually up to until it was much too late).
As I understand it, a great many people - my Estonian family included -thought for a long time that the Jews were just being relocated, much the way we had been relocated to Germany - staying for them was not an option. That might explain why some of those people of different ethnicities might have been willing to serve Germany!
Looking for some expertise on identifying this sword
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- Larry C
by TrondK
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