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SS Ehrendegen PMD Dachau

Article about: Beautiful SS Dachau production SS officers degen from my collection gents. Clearly marked PMD on the blade (Paul Muller Dachau) this would have been made at the Dachau forge in early 1940. T

  1. #11

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    Quote by mattty01 View Post
    Frogprince, thankyou for your opinion.
    I thought you disliked Dachau produced swords or anything produced by Muller.

    I agree that my sword is a six months earlier than I previously stated so I have altered my post to a mid 1939 production date rather than early 1940.

    What are the somewhat different accounts that 'bother' you other than you suggest Paul Muller didn't produce swords during 40-41? If that is what you are saying I respect your opinion but imo they were produced up until then.

    Also you mention Paul muller as being in the SS - this again is something I didn't know. Can this be supported with period documentation, a service number or something? Or even better a period photo?
    Looking at the above photo he doesn't look very SS however OK I respect your view.

    Locate your literature so we can recall dates as they are, rather than vaguely. My literature is above. It is taken from various sources, books, internet and mostly translated from German so I agree it may vary from yours but that is the best I have found.

    Please try and keep the thread reasonably simply Fred. Remember we're trying to educate people at different levels , too complex is uninteresting to beginners as they cannot keep up.

    Many thanks
    Matty, What my opinion is that the TR era Müller - who was under contract to the SS was someone who made some very nice Damascus sword blades with the fittings for same coming from specialists in other areas (than Damascus blades). And that as per the terms of the 1939 agreement: 1) Müller was under contract to teach the making of Damascus blades to preserve that art form by training designated SS men 2) Dachau was set up as the location of the blade forging smithy 3) Müller was to obey the directions of the RF-SS and/or his deputies 4) He was to receive monthly RM 450 net as well as accommodations 5) It was to be a lifetime contract 6) If he was unable to work due to a workplace injury prior to age 65 he was to be entitled to his full salary 7) At 65 he was to get 75% of his salary 8) Both were to get copies of the contract, with the Gesellschaft paying any document tax.

    Whereas my opinion of the postwar Müller is that he was a maker of fakes and fantasy pieces.

    With what has been bothering me is no period mention of anything other than Damascus sword blades, and/or specific verifiable mention of manufacturing stainless steel sword blades. Which unlike Damascus IMO is not an art form taking years to perfect versus some science and technology. With the correspondence re: a Leave of Absence not clear as to what exactly was going on in the 1940/41 period (other than age and health) and the writer’s insistence that Müller was expected to perform his duties if the RF-SS made a request. Also my apology if I seemed to suggest that Müller was in the SS, he was not. He was just an outside contractor who was doing business with the SS.

    As for keeping it simple that’s my desire also which is why I intentionally omitted some things like exact dates, and some of the period technical data etc. focusing instead on what I believe are reasonably accurate translations of period documents. Best Regards, Fred

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  3. #12

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    Fred, thankyou for the interest and the reply to the thread.

    Mostly what you have said is what I said in my first post. Ok wages have varied slightly, also you suggest there were 3 trainees not 5. However the amount of people working in the building was still 10 though. Very minor details and variation, so imo expected.
    I agree shortages hit in and would eventually stop production but if the trainees weren't moved until 1943 they were presumably doing something up until then? I agree, it wouldn't have been regular swords, most likely presentation swords. With this is mind is a 1941 deadline that out of the question for normal production? However going by your report if Muller was out of the framework completely by then is it not impossible that it could have been apprentices making these presentation swords?
    Would anybody really know if it wasn't him?

    Interestingly there are endless accounts that upon liberation US troops found overwhelming supplies of parts and started putting them together shortly after the war. This is odd, as the last thing we heard there was a shortage of parts right?

    Post war, Muller did go on to make daggers (high end mind) however from what you have said his health was bad, and practically writen off during 1940 and 1941. So I ask how would he have continued work long after the war if that was the case?

    Quote by Frogprince View Post
    With what has been bothering me is no period mention of anything other than Damascus sword blades, and/or specific verifiable mention of manufacturing stainless steel sword blades. Which unlike Damascus IMO is not an art form taking years to perfect versus some science and technology.
    Fred, please try not to get so bothered its a thread. I have not mentioned Damascus blades at all, the reason being my sword does not have a Damascus blade therefore I felt that it wasn't my place to comment on this part.
    I like to create threads about militaria that is 'in reach' for the average collector - a Dachau SS sword imo fit this category. OK a fair reach, but Damascus versions would be worth at least 10-15 times the price so well out of reach for the majority of us.
    IMO many collectors dreams are not satisfied viewing pictures in books, they want real life things they can hold in there hands.
    I think its important we all have something to work for in life therefore I have tried to show pictures of something very possible to achieve.

    If you have a Pmd produced Damascus blade SS degen please add this to the thread (and comment) however after searching the forum I cannot find any kind of thread relating to Dachau SS officers sword's - which im sure you would have done?

    Why don't we move onto topics which I haven't addressed and also anything else you wish to add in advance?

    OK. Can you help me locate the forge at Dachau with this aerial shot from april 1945. I have briefly mentioned it was in the SS section but do you have knowledge of exactly where it was?
    Where is was situated would answer allot of questions as to how it was run IMO.

    Yellow = SS training camp
    light blue = concentration camp
    Dark blue = main prisoner camp
    Red = herb garden

    Of course we are interested in the Yellow and light blue highlighted areas - the rest I have titled in case others are wondering.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also enclosed is a miniature scaled down version of the Dachau complex. I took this picture on my first visit back in 2013.
    This may help.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am still trying to learn more about how the forge was supplied.

    Presumably, in the earlier days the forge would have been fed by a train line that ran into the SS Garrison. As the train line enterered through the southwest corner it split then headed either East or North/east the latter where it could get out from another gate.
    I cannot find information about this but it is my belief is that the train stopped on the north line between the factory's.
    Is this likely where an raw materials would have been brought in and unloaded to supply the forge?

    many thanks matty
    Last edited by matty01; 12-30-2015 at 06:06 PM.

  4. #13

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    Quote by mattty01 View Post
    Fred, thankyou for the interest and the reply to the thread.

    Mostly what you have said is what I said in my first post. Ok wages have varied slightly, also you suggest there were 3 trainees not 5. However the amount of people working in the building was still 10 though. Very minor details and variation, so imo expected.
    I agree shortages hit in and would eventually stop production but if the trainees weren't moved until 1943 they were presumably doing something up until then? I agree, it wouldn't have been regular swords, most likely presentation swords. With this is mind is a 1941 deadline that out of the question for normal production? However going by your report if Muller was out of the framework completely by then is it not impossible that it could have been apprentices making these presentation swords?
    Would anybody really know if it wasn't him?

    Interestingly there are endless accounts that upon liberation US troops found overwhelming supplies of parts and started putting them together shortly after the war. This is odd, as the last thing we heard there was a shortage of parts right?

    Post war, Muller did go on to make daggers (high end mind) however from what you have said his health was bad, and practically writen off during 1940 and 1941. So I ask how would he have continued work long after the war if that was the case?



    Fred, please try not to get so bothered its a thread. I have not mentioned Damascus blades at all, the reason being my sword does not have a Damascus blade therefore I felt that it wasn't my place to comment on this part.
    I like to create threads about militaria that is 'in reach' for the average collector - a Dachau SS sword imo fit this category. OK a fair reach, but Damascus versions would be worth at least 10-15 times the price so well out of reach for the majority of us.
    IMO many collectors dreams are not satisfied viewing pictures in books, they want real life things they can hold in there hands.
    I think its important we all have something to work for in life therefore I have tried to show pictures of something very possible to achieve.

    If you have a Pmd produced Damascus blade SS degen please add this to the thread (and comment) however after searching the forum I cannot find any kind of thread relating to Dachau SS officers sword's - which im sure you would have done?

    Why don't we move onto topics which I haven't addressed and also anything else you wish to add in advance?

    OK. Can you help me locate the forge at Dachau with this aerial shot from april 1945. I have briefly mentioned it was in the SS section but do you have knowledge of exactly where it was?
    Where is was situated would answer allot of questions as to how it was run IMO.

    Yellow = SS training camp
    light blue = concentration camp
    Dark blue = main prisoner camp
    Red = herb garden

    Of course we are interested in the Yellow and light blue highlighted areas - the rest I have titled in case others are wondering.

    Also enclosed is a miniature scaled down version of the Dachau complex. I took this picture on my first visit back in 2013.
    This may help.

    I am still trying to learn more about how the forge was supplied.

    Presumably, in the earlier days the forge would have been fed by a train line that ran into the SS Garrison. As the train line enterered through the southwest corner it split then headed either East or North/east the latter where it could get out from another gate.
    I cannot find information about this but it is my belief is that the train stopped on the north line between the factory's.
    Is this likely where an raw materials would have been brought in and unloaded to supply the forge?

    many thanks matty
    Hello Matty,

    As I have some things to get ready for the New Year’s festivities this will be briefer than it might be otherwise. What I said was that the author (Tom Johnson) said that the number of students was less than 10, and by April 1943 it was down to three, and then zero by the end of the month. As for what Müller was doing in 1940/41 he was under contract, but what he was physically doing is not specified. It does however say that some of the time off could be broken up into segments to suit him personally and whatever was going at the time. Part time Damascus instructor, the occasional sword for Himmler to be made - who knows?

    When I was living in Germany I did not visit any of the KZ’s, with my interests more in the military and especially the German weapons which is why when I started collecting it was guns (blades were later). With Dachau initially of interest because of Himmler’s wanting to get into the arms making (and/or reworking) business which is a story all to itself. That for me was aided by one of Albert Speer’s memoirs as a starting point. So I have some data on Dachau and its layout etc. put away somewhere but not available at the moment.

    As for the delivery by train of raw materials are we talking about trainloads of coal, iron*, chromium*, and nickel* ore (* imported - iron ore only partially, see the four year plan and related topics) to make steel or already finished steel billets? My point here being that some of Himmler’s ambitions of an industrial empire worked out and some did not, and were better handled by professionals.

    With Best Regards, Fred

  5. #14

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    Hi Fred, thankyou for making the time inbetween things - I know how it is.

    I think you have some very good information, we need to gather it together to create a clear picture and hopefully get it in black and white here.
    If theres anything else you know this is the thread to keep it on, even if your information is slightly different to mine, I am happy with that. Slight variations can be down to the way things are recorded.

    Theres many unanswered questions behind Paul Muller and the forge at Dachau. I hope to find my answers one day.

    Oh well, happy new year for 2016.

    best matty

  6. #15

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    Happy new year all.

    Despite my lack of knowledge about Damascus blades what Fred has said about Damascus blades at Dachau is interesting. We are both looking for period photographs of Dachau style SS degens in wear to clear this matter up. I have found candidate degens but would also like to find Muller style SS degens if we can. Can anybody help?
    They should be easily spotted in period photgraphs as the SS button is higher than the 5th rib so situated just after the 4th rib.

    I have found nothing concrete as to the location of the forge. However, I did find a thread on another forum by a member(s) who was also looking for the location of the forge.
    Imo its all quite interesting, and worth thinking about anyway.
    They had tracked the location down to here.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The pictures really upside down, the bottom is more north and the top south.

    So, from what know, does this location make sense?
    I have read accounts that the forge was on the western side and also in close proximately of the train line.
    Once we clarify where the railway came through it will make more sense, however I have always thought it headed between these factory buildings somewhere near that tall chimney.
    Also this building is located in the ordinance training and workshop area, it is small, and most likely to be about the size to hold up to 10 men working (give or take).
    So most likely the guys are not far out with this location of the forge and within a few buildings anyway.

    It would be great to here a comment from them to see if they have any other possibilities.

    Today the building is gone, but what looks to still stand is the old war crime trial building? According to the map, the forge was maybe 20 yards south/west of this building.

    rgds matty

  7. #16
    ?

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    The location identified above appears correct. Attachment shown below is an aerial image dated 1945 with an accurate indication of the Dachau sword forge. Matty, you have already received my reply related to the forge but I shall add the information to the thread for you. Not sure who informed you that the original structure has been removed, for the building is actually extant.

    DACHAU SWORD FORGE

    The sword forge belonged to the SS technical weapon training institute, which was located on the SS grounds near the prisoner camp at Dachau. Following liberation, US troops were stationed on site (until early 1970's). Later, Bavarian Riot Police (Bayerische Bereitschaftspolizei) took over the grounds. The result of this is that the former sword forge building is not part of the Dachau Memorial Site and even though it does still exist, no access is allowed anywhere near the structure (for obvious reasons).

    Carl
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	aerial view 1945 indicating sword forge.jpg 
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ID:	924852  
    Experienced guide and published author leading detailed study trips to the former KZ sites of Nazi Germany. Contact for further details.

    www.concentrationcamptours.com

    www.concentrationcampmoney.com


    "maka akaŋl oyate maŋi pi ki le, tuweŋi wíyópeya oki hi sni"

  8. #17

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    Hi Carl, you have just made history amongst the edged weapon collectors!

    Thankyou for looking into this and finally solving the mystery as to where the forge was located.

    Indeed you are right the building you meantion is still standing - fantastic!

    Although not possible to get close, I think if you to head at the north end of the complex and look down through the buildings it could be seen from the fenceline.

    Interestingly from what ive read, things are starting to stack up. I will draw a diagram to explain.

    Thankyou again for this Carl, you truly are a wonderful KZ researcher.

    Very best Mattty

  9. #18

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    A close up of the location of the forge.

    The green dot is the location which I had quoted originally in the red square.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #19

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    These are the two main buildings of the Waffentechnische Lehranstalt der SS at the north end of the Uebungslager. As you can see from this post-war picture the sword smithy was one of the buildings demolished after the war. Its original position is marked in red.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #20
    ?

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    Quote by d'alquen View Post
    These are the two main buildings of the Waffentechnische Lehranstalt der SS at the north end of the Uebungslager. As you can see from this post-war picture the sword smithy was one of the buildings demolished after the war. Its original position is marked in red.
    Thank you for an interesting amendment. Indeed, it is one that my contact at KZ-Gedenkstätte-Dachau will patently find of interest. Today, a structure that appears to have similar dimensions stands on the exact spot - this must have been identified by museum staff as the period structure yet the image posted above clearly shows that is not possible.
    Experienced guide and published author leading detailed study trips to the former KZ sites of Nazi Germany. Contact for further details.

    www.concentrationcamptours.com

    www.concentrationcampmoney.com


    "maka akaŋl oyate maŋi pi ki le, tuweŋi wíyópeya oki hi sni"

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