Swords, Sabres and Imperial during the Third Reich

[Frogprince]

The multiple branched hilt example is an interesting one that I think I've seen on another WRF forum. Which to the best of my recollection is unmarked. With the Imperial era officer's service multi-branched type being a copy of the M 1852/79. With the example here I'm assuming earlier - but I don't know just where to put it (as to the end user and model). With my quandary being this: I know that in the 1840's Prussia experimented with new models for the cavalry and mounted artillery but they are well marked. With the net result being the adoption of the M 1852 for the cavalry, and the old M 1811 Blüchersabel reallocated a few years later to the mounted artillery . And the sword here (the bottom one) has a multiple branched hand guard. But of a different configuration and with langets, that neither of the (experimental/trials) multiple branched handguard equipped cavalry swords has. So it's still an unknown from my perspective unless somebody has some new information. Best regards, Fred

[stuka f]

Correct Fred, I posted them earlyer here.
cheers
|<ris

[Walkwolf]

Instead of pressing the 'like' button for every pic, I should comment:
WOW - Stunning collection of beautiful swords..........!

[Michael Ryan]

A fine selection of edged weaponry but alas of a period that I am not overly familiar. Any comments that I make are therefore not from a position of knowledge but rather opinion. The bottom sabre is new to me but does not shout "German" at me, rather South America or possibly Scandinavia?? If the blade bears no Prussian or other German State's dating, acceptance, unit or other ordnance stamps and has no manufacturer's logo or title etc. then I would suggest the possiblity that the weapon is possibly an export item and not meant for German military use?? Germany, France and GB manufactured and exported swords and other weaponry all over the place in the 19th century, ergo possibly a derivative of the Blucher from Germany or of the 1796 from GB?? Sorry if this is all a bit vague and speculative but I feel sure that some knowledgeable sword collector or student out there will provide a definative explanation of the sabre's origin and its user nationality. Sorry!!
With thanks, regards and best wishes Michael R

[Frogprince]

There are military issue earlier 19th century Scandinavian swords that do have a resemblance to German swords. But from the information that I have available at the moment, this particular multi-branched example is not one of them. And it could be for another as yet unidentified nation which cannot be ruled out at this point.

With Solingen itself located in the Duchy of Berg, which itself was not fielding any large armies to exert a military solution to political issues, but was not adverse to supplying those who were. And at the juncture of the 18th and 19th centuries there was an English sword maker who was complaining quite vigorously publicly about the competition (imported swords) from Solingen. With the fact of the matter being that the 1796 light cavalry officer’s swords from one of the better known German makers (that he was complaining about a little earlier) made a very decent version of the 1796. That you would not really know was not English made unless you took it out of the scabbard to examine it.

With the competition being eliminated for a period during the Napoleonic Wars and Solingen and its blade makers under French control. But with the defeat of Napoleon at the Battle of Leipzig the Prussians soon established an interim political state for the Duchy. That was followed a little later with a change in status as the Prussian province of Rheinland, with makers in Solingen hard at work to regain their earlier position/status in the manufacture of edged weapons. With my point here being that Germany was still a collection of smaller political entities and some much larger ones. With Prussia (in my estimation) the most regulated/organized one in terms of marking its military equipment. Which was not a path that was followed nearly as conscientiously by many of the larger German states - although as the end of the century approached there was a greater degree of conformity. Which brings me back to the sword in question, which has the M 1811 German style “drag” at the bottom of the scabbard that could point toward a German origin. And while it’s not a forgone conclusion, if I had to make a guess I think that the sword could be an “export” example to possibly one of the smaller German states/entities. Best regards, Fred

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Fred, You certainly know your history!! As far as the sword is concerned though, I honestly have no ideas as to its origins nor of its user nationality. With regard to your comment about the British complaints about German manufactured weapons, my understanding was that the complaint or a major part of the complaint referred to the poor standard of German import bayonets and the fact that they were breaking when in use. However, what was forgotten is that the weapons were apparently heavily reworked after delivery and that it was not the product but the reworking that caused the problems. Ergo the complaint was spurious and perhaps levelled in an attempt to undermine German sales to the British Government??
I viewed a South American sword in a local auction which was listed as a German Lion Head military sabre. However, appart from the fact that it looked brand new, it also had a Venesualan?? coat of arms on the langet. The drag, indeed the whole scabbard and sword were identical in style to those used by the German Army. I would therefore reserve my opinion on the drag as evidence of German useage???????
Thanks for all the historical information, very interesting.
Cheers Michael R

[Frogprince]

Hello Michael, I believe that what you've described were what has been called the “19th century sword scandals” near the end of the century. And you are correct in that either directly, or as contractors using parts from Germany, blame was affixed to British makers who had damaged the blades by storing them under poor conditions which caused rust-corrosion. And then performed too much grinding/polishing, as you described to bring then to a suitable appearance thereby weakening the blades. Something that become a major scandal with a commission appointed in 1884 to look into the matter, with bayonets also under investigation.

As for Venezuela it’s outside my primary areas of interest. And is not listed per se in the 1930’s Eickhorn Latin America export catalog. But a brief look at the catalog shows an amazing group of British, German, Italian, Spanish and U.S. style cavalry and officer's swords. “P” guards, lion heads, eagle heads, basket hilts, different national crests, civil officials, navals, police briquets, and many other swords and daggers with a combination of features offered for sale that are much more than what I’ve just described. Which if nothing else I think - shows that a sword maker in the 20th century with easy access to the necessary tooling could pick and choose design features at will to offer to potential customers to satisfy their needs. Best regards, Fred

[Michael Ryan]

Hi again Fred, Thank you for your latest update. All very interesting!! For a Yank, you certainly know your European history not to mention British!! Or, are you reading it all from a book?? LOL. However, having said all this, are we any nearer to ascertaining the facts about the illusive sword?? Are there any blade or hilt markings on the sword? Where on the "West Coast" are you??
Cheers for now Michael R

[Frogprince]

Hello Michael, Yes - I am a Yank. And even worse I’m a California native, with California not having the same kind of rich history as Europe. But I have lived and worked there, visited museums and spent time with German and UK forces, developing an interest in the histories for the most part of those who shared my own ancestral background. All of which led me into collecting as a hobby in multiple areas. So while I (obviously) have books. I also have access to many of the items in question. Or have studied them first hand at some point earlier. Having a somewhat technical background/perspective, which has led me to be very appreciative of how they were made in the different time periods.

As for the sword itself, I hope that stuka f will post his original thread link to confirm it. With my best recollection being that it’s unmarked. And here is another image of the part that intrigued me - which is the somewhat triangular shape of the lower portion of the scabbard’s “drag”.
With my best regards, Fred

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Friends, Some interesting Deggen for your perusal and comments. Although not TR, they are interesting Imperial weapons so I hope that you like them. By the way, the feet in some of the pictures belong to me, not TR and not very collectable!!
Best wishes Michael R

Item 1. A rather nice Bavarian State, Governmental or Diplomatic ?? sword. Etched blade marked "Mohr & Speyer Berlin".



Item 2. A similar sword but Prussian. Etched blade marked WKC.