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Swords of the Third Reich, Imperial through 1945 - Quick Reference

Article about: Cheers Larry!!!!! Regards Michael R

  1. #211

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    #186 is a really nice looking sword.

    gregM
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  3. #212

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    Hi Larry, Thank you for your comment!!!! I should have a phone number by the first week in December????? Will let you know!!
    Regards and best wishes Michael

  4. #213

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    Sword 197 The maufacturer of this sword is Carl Eickhorn and logo on the blade comprises the "ORIGINAL" over the Eickhorn Squirrel hold a sword over the name "Solingen". There are no other markings on either the hilt or the blade.

    a. Hilt. Cast in aloy and the backstrap is attached directly grip using a pair of aloy rivets. The grip is of wood with a plastic cover and a silver aloy wire wrap.
    b. Obverse Langet. The langet comprises a plain outlined shield upon which is a political style eagle surmounting a swastika within a wreath.
    c. Reverse langet. The langet comprises a plain outlined shield.
    d. Pommel. A dove head style with foliage patterning.
    e. Blade. The blade is plane with single fullers and is unusual in that ih has been heavily blued rather than polished or nickel plated.
    f. Scabbard. Standard black enamelled steel scabbard with single ring suspension fitting with rectangular suspension loop to rear.
    g. Rarety. Unusual particularly with a blued blade.


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  5. #214

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    Sword 198 The manufacturer of this sword is unfortunately not known as there is no logo on the blade. Although at first glance, it must have been carried by a very short cavalryman, it is in fact a "Kinder Sabel". A child's sword. Not by any stretch of the imagination a toy but rather a very well crafted miniature cavalry sabre probably made for the son of a cavalry officer who would almost definitely have had a full miniature uniform and helmet. Possibly made for a wedding or military presentation etc. I would date this little sword as Imperial rather than post WWI

    a. Hilt. Cast in gilded brass with the back strap attached directly to the blade tang. The grip is of wood with a plastic cover and a brass wire wrap.
    b. Obverse Langet. The langet comprises an outlined shield upon which is a pair of crossed sabres superimposed over a circular wreath oflaurel (Victory) .
    c. Reverse langet. The langet comprises an outlined shield upon which is a full shiels encompassed within a circular laurel wreath.
    d. Pommel. A lion head.
    e. Blade. The blade is plane without fullers and is unusual in that it has a () section with a cutting edge on both sides. The blade point is rounded and of plated steal.
    f. Scabbard. Standard black enamelled steel scabbard with single ring suspension fitting and devoid of a rectangular suspension loop to rear.
    g. Rarity. I have only ever encountered two so I would say pretty rare??


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  6. #215

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    Well done!! The Kinder-Säbel are "rare birds" and it's been many moons since I've seen one in general circulation myself. Also very interesting is the preceding example with the blued blade with what almost looks like a Brennlak type of finish over the hilt's base metal. Best Regards, Fred

  7. #216

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    Hi Fred, Thank you for your comments. I have only ever seen two Kinder swords and I missed the first one because I got caught up in a traffic jam. "Brennlak", not something I have ever come across before but I am assuming that it is a fish used on sword hilts?? The under side of the hilt has traces of a bright gold finish and my assumption is/was that the hilt had been bright but was suffering from nicotine poisoning in a smokey atmosphere?? But I am more than happy to be corrected.

    What are your collecting spheres?? I am assuming that "swords" is at least one judging by your excellent knowledge on the subject??

    In the post "Imperial Cavalry Sabre" you noted that shagreen for grip covers was stopped in 1916. Was this for military purchased weapons or did this policy also cover private purchase items? My understanding was that the quality of both the sword and its grip was a matter of personal preference and cost?? Also, did you agree with the contents of my post on the subject? Your knowledge on the subject seems superior to mine and if I am incorrect, I need to know!! Re the grip cover on that sword, I thought that I could see grain contours but again, I am open to correction.

    I look forward to your answers please.

    Cheers Michael

  8. #217

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    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    Hi Fred, Thank you for your comments. I have only ever seen two Kinder swords and I missed the first one because I got caught up in a traffic jam. "Brennlak", not something I have ever come across before but I am assuming that it is a fish used on sword hilts?? The under side of the hilt has traces of a bright gold finish and my assumption is/was that the hilt had been bright but was suffering from nicotine poisoning in a smokey atmosphere?? But I am more than happy to be corrected.

    What are your collecting spheres?? I am assuming that "swords" is at least one judging by your excellent knowledge on the subject??

    In the post "Imperial Cavalry Sabre" you noted that shagreen for grip covers was stopped in 1916. Was this for military purchased weapons or did this policy also cover private purchase items? My understanding was that the quality of both the sword and its grip was a matter of personal preference and cost?? Also, did you agree with the contents of my post on the subject? Your knowledge on the subject seems superior to mine and if I am incorrect, I need to know!! Re the grip cover on that sword, I thought that I could see grain contours but again, I am open to correction.

    I look forward to your answers please.

    Cheers Michael
    Hello Michael,

    Not in hand - the underside of the hilt is a piece of information I was lacking with Brennlak a baked on type of paint used to simulate plating especially on badges made of base metal etc. So now I'm not so sure, and would have to look at the item very very closely to see what I can see in order to try and make a better determination. As for my interests they are many and have changed focus many times. Probably more in the area of combat arms from multiple nations with the usual rifles, pistols, and bayonets etc. - swords were another early interest of mine. That while like many of the things I've collected they've come and gone, for Germany and some other nations they are still fairly well represented depending on the time frame which varies. As for the sharkskin, I know that Germany was having significant problems (like it also did in WW II) in all sorts of areas for the war effort domestically and because of the blockade. With the 1916 dated Prussian IOD 89 (Kriegsmodell) pictured not only having a polished walnut grip in lieu of sharkskin, but also lacking any brass used in its construction (I did have another very slightly earlier example of the Kriegsmodell that was still using the earlier brass grip cypher presumably as a leftover part) with my point here being that if the Prussian government was forced to change its standards - how long do you think they allowed the private sector to keep making items using restricted materials??) Which is why we see (IMO) the usually painted non-brass hilted late period swords made of alternate materials until they undoubtedly stopped production in its entirety (just like they did in 1942 of the TR era). Regarding Weyersberg and Co. vis-ā-vis WKC in the "Imperial" thread. The King's head portion that was combined with the Knight's Head to form the WKC logo was very old circa the 17th century, with Kirschbaum circa mid-19th century merging together at the end of the 19th century. But with the Weyersberg bloodlines seeming to split up taking multiple different paths, which is why I suggested that it might have been just another branch of the family that was using the family name.

    With Best Regards,

    Fred

  9. #218

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    Hi Fred, Many thanks for your comprehensive message. Your point is well made re the grip covers but may I suggest that a private purchaser with sufficient funds would almost certainly be able to buy what he wanted regardless of government policy?? Money talks as they say in the old films!! Regarding the firm of Weyersberg and Co. Had the hilt design not incorporated the Knight's helm on the reverse langet, then I would have said yes, probably as you suggest but use of the helm and title in conjunction is, in my opinion, indicative of post amalgamation and the use of common components. Another possibility though unlikely is that Weyersberg purchased components from Kirschbaum??? In any event, a nice sword. So Fred what is your current collecting sphere(s)? Do you still collect swords and blades etc??

    Cheers Michael

    PS Although probably incomplete the Weyersberg firms that I have found are:

    PETER WEYERSBERG until 1712
    CLEMENS WEYERBERG extant between 1712 and 1754
    GEBRUDER WEYERSBERG extant between 1787 and 1925 The firm passed through various sons and in laws.
    WKC Amalgamation in 1883
    GEBRUDER WEYERSBERG having ceased operation post amalgamation reformed in 1902 and remained extant until circa 1925 at which time it changed its title dropping mention of Weyerberg. In its second incarnation, the firm did not, apparently, produce weapons.
    PETER WEYERSBERG the elder extant between 1680 and 1712.
    PETER WEYERSBERG the younger extant between 1754 and 1782.
    WILHELM WEYERSBERG extant between 1782 and 1786.
    It would appear that all of the above used the King's Head as a trade mark?

    Another firm WEYERSBERG AND STAMM extant between 1817 and 1872 appears to have concentrated on weaponry for the Bavarian Goverment. The firm did not survive the unification of the German States and did not use the King's Head but rather the initials "W&S" and "W&ST"

  10. #219

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    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    Hi Fred, Many thanks for your comprehensive message. Your point is well made re the grip covers but may I suggest that a private purchaser with sufficient funds would almost certainly be able to buy what he wanted regardless of government policy?? Money talks as they say in the old films!! Regarding the firm of Weyersberg and Co. Had the hilt design not incorporated the Knight's helm on the reverse langet, then I would have said yes, probably as you suggest but use of the helm and title in conjunction is, in my opinion, indicative of post amalgamation and the use of common components. Another possibility though unlikely is that Weyersberg purchased components from Kirschbaum??? In any event, a nice sword. So Fred what is your current collecting sphere(s)? Do you still collect swords and blades etc??

    Cheers Michael

    PS Although probably incomplete the Weyersberg firms that I have found are:

    PETER WEYERSBERG until 1712
    CLEMENS WEYERBERG extant between 1712 and 1754
    GEBRUDER WEYERSBERG extant between 1787 and 1925 The firm passed through various sons and in laws.
    WKC Amalgamation in 1883
    GEBRUDER WEYERSBERG having ceased operation post amalgamation reformed in 1902 and remained extant until circa 1925 at which time it changed its title dropping mention of Weyerberg. In its second incarnation, the firm did not, apparently, produce weapons.
    PETER WEYERSBERG the elder extant between 1680 and 1712.
    PETER WEYERSBERG the younger extant between 1754 and 1782.
    WILHELM WEYERSBERG extant between 1782 and 1786.
    It would appear that all of the above used the King's Head as a trade mark?

    Another firm WEYERSBERG AND STAMM extant between 1817 and 1872 appears to have concentrated on weaponry for the Bavarian Goverment. The firm did not survive the unification of the German States and did not use the King's Head but rather the initials "W&S" and "W&ST"
    Hello Again Michael,

    Of course it's always possible that somebody or multiple somebodies had some supplies of sharkskin stashed away somewhere that could be used - but I suspect that it would more likely be seen on the higher grade swords versus just average/lesser grades. And it could be a time variable factor - trending to substitutes as time went on having seen some swords with higher grade synthetic grips versus the ordinary plain black types. As for the makers I'm fairly certain that I have at least one Prussian sword by Weyersberg & Stamm, as well as Schnitzler & Kirschbaum (also on Prussian swords) and maybe some more that are catalogued by type instead of maker. With my thinking being that the more decorative logos seem to have been seen more on the non-government contracts (my immediate recollection, needing some more study on a case by case basis). As for my collecting what I did with some areas was to keep a few examples that I really liked, and with others very little or maybe even eliminated depending on how I felt at the time. But the blades and some other things for the most part stayed with me as an active area of interest although not as aggressively, which in part is probably due to the fact that really good (and more interesting) items are getting harder and harder to find.

    Best Regards, Fred

  11. #220

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    Hi Fred, I agree with all you have said!! And thanked you accordingly. It is a shame that we live on different sides of the pond as I love to see your collection. In the last year, I have only acquired three swords one being the Kinder. Nice examples are hard to find and then bloody expensive!! Take care and happy hunting.
    Regards Michael

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