Swords of the Third Reich, Imperial through 1945 - Quick Reference

[Michael Ryan]

Good Morning Fred!! Thank you for your replies. I like your analytical approach to these old swords and have made my first job this bright Sunday morning, a venture into the garage with guess what, yup, a magnet. No, the hilt is nonmagnetic and I would suggest it is of gilded brass. Like you and Ivan (Stingray?), I am also inclined to think possibly Weimar or even pre WW1. My main reservation is the lack of state affiliation or commemorative title in the Regimental number. From my research, there are several Cavalry Regiments numbered 14 across the old early German states and usually differentiated by either state or commemoration affiliation?? Not necessarily all though?? In my collection records I have categorised the sabre as Imperial??

Now, back to my original question about date, you did not mention TR?? The reverse of the blade bears an interesting etch for what I call an Imperial weapon. As you have said, and I totally agree, Imperial and or Weimar swords can and do go through transitions as I suggested in #3 above and the weapon which is the subject of this initial post is just such a sword IMO? The etching on the second cavalry sword, again IMO, is conclusive evidence of a transitional blade even more so than the damascus sword. Would you agree?? By the way, my question to you was not me being a smart ass, I am just hoping to present proof positive of weapons being updated to suit political change etc. Of course, once again I could be barking up the wrong tree or just barking (mad)

On the subject of why replace an Imperial WKC hilt with the TR CE Wrangel hilt, my preferred explanation, though by no means provable, is the possibility of some form of family affiliation with the 3rd (East Prussian) Cuirassiers "Count Wrangel"??? Or the GFM himself??

I await with bated breath, your opinions!!!

Cheers Michael

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Stingray/Ivan? Thank you for your contribution. True to form for this Forum, you present information and opinion in both an interesting, constructive and informative format. Please feel free to give your opinions on any of my threads as I greatly appreciate intelligent and informed debate!!! Also, if you strongly disagree with me and are reserved about giving your opinion, please do not hesitate to PM me.

With thanks, regards and best wishes Michael

[Frogprince]

Good Afternoon Michael, I will be out until the later part of today so this will have to be brief. The blade significantly changes the equation: I had thought that the dull silver color that I’m still seeing in the images was an iron/steel base where portions of the gold color plating were missing that had been cleaned to a bare metal. Traditional Imperial cavalry etc. style hilts still being offered in catalogs (and some swords) at least as late as 1938. So for myself the next trip would be outside to see the hilt in sunlight (or indoors with the right kind of lighting) trying to determine if the hilt might be plating over zinc with portions of it having aged to a dull silver color. Which of course would be later (post 1935) in the TR era. As for the regimental number that’s something that I didn’t have time to look into earlier yesterday that I could try and check out when I get back. Best Regards, Fred

[Frogprince]

Michael, The Weimar area in general is not particularly an area of specialization for me so I’m lacking hardcopy backup information with the following possibly requiring some fact checking if you think that it’s needed. As a part of the Reichswehr, the regiment early in the history of Weimar Republic was incorporated into the 3rd Cavalry Divison as a Prussian-Mecklenburg cavalry regiment. With the change in government there were some changes and in 1936 it was renamed “Kavallerie-Regiment 14” as a part of the XI. Armeekorps. But during the mobilizations of 1938 it seems to have been broken up into multiple reconnaissance squadrons, with the remainder organized as cavalry replacement battalion/detachment number 14 (Kavallerie-Ersatz-Abteilung 14). Later transforming to a bicycle related unit before being dissolved in 1944 to form another Kavallerie-Ersatz-Abteilung. Does that information conform to the timeline for the physical construction characteristics of the sword? Best Regards, Fred

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Fred, Thank you for your two messages and info etc. I will dig the sword out and do a bit of checking re its construction and trade marks etc. Once I know what I am talking about, I will contact you. Hopefully today!!

Cheers Michael

[Frogprince]

Hi Fred, Thank you for your two messages and info etc. I will dig the sword out and do a bit of checking re its construction and trade marks etc. Once I know what I am talking about, I will contact you. Hopefully today!!

Cheers Michael

Michael, As an assist here are two images that I processed using my primary machine that I think better shows what I seem to be seeing (the matte gray coloration) and I'm looking forward to a better understanding of the sword. With that said ......... IMO it has a "killer" etch (ie: very impressive) and I can certainly understand why you acquired it. Best Regards, Fred

[Michael Ryan]

Hi Fred, Thank you for your recent correspondence on this subject and for the enhanced photos. Also, a busy week so apologies for my delayed reaction!!! I have had a go at cleaning the areas which you highlighted and taken better photos of the them. The murky grey look has come up as bright brass but if you would like any additional pictures of other areas, not a problem. My opinion is that the hilt is gilded brass? But I welcome your opinion on it.

Cheers once again Michael

[Michael Ryan]

Good Morning Fred, Thank you for the information in Posts 273 and 274. Certainly the title given in 1936 fits in well with the blade etching and there is no Imperial connotation in the etching ergo the sword may be purely TR? However the blade feels and looks to be Imperial by way of size and weight. Now, for an admission of my own stupidity!!! All of the comments that I have made have been overtaken by a fact that I have just and very belatedly spotted!! I have just taken a very close look under the reverse langet and found, much to my embarrassment, an Eickhorn trademark of 1936 style!! I find it hard to accept my own stupidity!!!

Sorry about all this Fred!!

Regards Michael

[colt45]

WOW! love the white handle navy, red & green eyes

[Frogprince]

Good Afternoon Michael, There’s nothing to regret. Your postings have given all of us something that’s very nice to look at and learn from as I have. I’m still not convinced that I’m seeing gold plating over brass which is not the first time that I’ve taken an interest in what’s basically a technical matter. About 7-10 years ago there was a discussion (elsewhere) that tried to resolve a period black and white photo as to what an item was actually made from - which was purely a technical one because no one was questioning originality. For myself, not being the best photographer, posted below is one I took for that thread to try and show some color values in sunlight using as a contrast a piece of brushed aluminum. All brass, the hilts from left to right by era: Napoleonic, Crimean, Imperial German (unlike the others it has a nickel plated blade). All chosen for their different colorations, whereas gold is gold and doesn't really tarnish in a normal atmosphere. Best Regards, Fred